lost ball - provisional

[jpxpro]

regardless of whether you can see your ball or not, if you put another ball in play and don't declare it as a provisional then the new ball becomes your in play ball and you continue with that under penalty, e.g. I hit a ball over green, didnt declare provisional ball and played another straight into hole, I walked off with a par even tho I subsequently found my 1st ball as I hadn't declared provisional on tee.

similarly a playing partner smashed his drive up to just right of the green, but thinned his second shot into bunker, instead of playing bunker shot he played a ball as close to were original ball was, took a 1 shot penalty and chipped his 4th shot stiff. even tho bunker shot was playable he chose the safer option in his opinion, which was within rules of game

 

[backwoodsman]

I know what you mean ...

I guess there's another method to lob in the mix. You can just opt to play stroke & distake without further cause - no looking, not lost, and not unplayable. Technically 3 different options but in practice 3 identical actions.

 

[drdel]

regardless of whether you can see your ball or not, if you put another ball in play and don't declare it as a provisional then the new ball becomes your in play ball and you continue with that under penalty, e.g. I hit a ball over green, didnt declare provisional ball and played another straight into hole, I walked off with a par even tho I subsequently found my 1st ball as I hadn't declared provisional on tee.

similarly a playing partner smashed his drive up to just right of the green, but thinned his second shot into bunker, instead of playing bunker shot he played a ball as close to were original ball was, took a 1 shot penalty and chipped his 4th shot stiff. even tho bunker shot was playable he chose the safer option in his opinion, which was within rules of game

Exactly you are the sole decider of when your ball is unplayable. You can always replay a shot under 'stroke and distance'.

 

[Ross61]

regardless of whether you can see your ball or not, if you put another ball in play and don't declare it as a provisional then the new ball becomes your in play ball and you continue with that under penalty, e.g. I hit a ball over green, didnt declare provisional ball and played another straight into hole, I walked off with a par even tho I subsequently found my 1st ball as I hadn't declared provisional on tee.9
9c
similarly a playing partner smashed his drive up to just right of the green, but thinned his second shot into bunker, instead of playing bunker shot he played a ball as close to were original ball was, took a 1 shot penalty and chipped his 4th shot stiff. even tho bunker shot was playable he chose the safer option in his opinion, which was within rules of game

If the ball was in the bunker, then the drop MUST be within in the bunker. rule 20-5 (c)

 

[Capella]

If the ball was in the bunker, then the drop MUST be within in the bunker. rule 20-5 (c)

No, not true. Check rule 28, unplayable ball:

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:
a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or
c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.
If the unplayable ball is in a bunker
, the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker
.

So choosing option a (which is what the player in question did in this case) is okay, even if you are in a bunker. I did not know that either until I looked that up right now.

 

[Ross61]

No, not true. Check rule 28, unplayable ball:



So choosing option a (which is what the player in question did in this case) is okay, even if you are in a bunker. I did not know that either until I looked that up right now.

Sorry but you cannot, as in rule 28 that you quote, option (a) says (see rule 20-5)

 

[chrisd]

Exactly you are the sole decider of when your ball is unplayable. You can always replay a shot under 'stroke and distance'.

You can even declare a ball "unplayable" on the green a foot from the cup if you were daft enough

 

[Capella]

As in rule 28 that you quote, option (a) says (see rule 20-5)

Yes. But in rule 20-5, they are talking about the previous ball being in the hazard. So if you hit a shot out of a bunker and that ball is unplayable and you decide to proceed under rule 28 a), then you have to drop it in the bunker and it has to come in contact with a part of the surface of the bunker before it comes to rest.

 

[Ross61]

Yes. But in rule 20-5, they are talking about the previous ball being in the hazard. So if you hit a shot out of a bunker and that ball is unplayable and you decide to proceed under rule 28 a), then you have to drop it in the bunker and it has to come in contact with a part of the surface of the bunker before it comes to rest.

OK I concede that I am wrong, apologies

 

[Junior]

dear OP (@IanS) here's one to bear in mind that happened to me on Saturday in our monthly medal.

I topped a tee shot 50yds into an area of thick gorse. Not good. So I declared and played a provisional - and as is almost always the case it seems - I hit an absolute peach into Position A.

I went to see if my ball had got through the gorse - but no - it hadn't but on walking to my bag I found it - unplayable at the edge of the gorse. My choices.

1) Penalty drop within 2 club lengths. But nowhere to drop that wouldn't put me back in a similar position as that in which I found my ball. Option Rejected.
2) Drop on a line made by extending backwards the line between original ball position and the flag (way in the distance). Again - nowhere to drop that wouldn't put me back in a similar position as that in which I found my ball. Option Rejected.
3) Take Stroke and Distance and go back to the tee. This was I chose to do. And hit a 'not bad' tee shot - but not near as good as my provisional - ho hum.

But newbie take note. Because I found my original ball I could not ignore it or stick it in my pocket and choose to play my provisional - my provisional was now irrelevant. I had to play my original ball.

Further, if on walking to the gorse bush I had decided it was most probably going to be 'lost', I could not simply 'declare it lost' to enable me to play my 'cracking' provisional. I could say these words and if my ball was not found then I can play the provisional. But if subsequent to making my 'lost' declaration I or a.n.other had (within 5mins of being in the approx vicinity of the ball whether you look for it or not) stumbled on my ball then - as above - the provisional was irrelevant - and my original was now the ball in play. Declaring your ball lost is irrelevant if you then find it (within 5mins) A ball is only 'lost' (or can be ignored) by the very act of the player putting another ball in play and not declaring that new ball a provisional.

I have to admit to cursing and wondering how many players would have not mentioned to their companions that they had found their original ball, and gone ahead to play their provisional...very few I hope and suspect. But I did wonder.

Nicely explained SILH.

I always wondered, in the interest of speeding up the game, why they never changed this rule so that you can just play your provisional ball for your 4th shot. Imagine you had been 250 yards down the fairway and had to do the walk back to the tee. Surely it would save time.

 

[duncan mackie]

Nicely explained SILH.

I always wondered, in the interest of speeding up the game, why they never changed this rule so that you can just play your provisional ball for your 4th shot. Imagine you had been 250 yards down the fairway and had to do the walk back to the tee. Surely it would save time.

Nope - everyone would be hitting a huge number of provisional balls then weighing up whether they are better playing the original (under all its options) or the provisional. If you hit a poor provisional you would also want to find that before deciding the options on the first etc etc

Everything would grind to a halt!

 

[Orikoru]

Nicely explained SILH.

I always wondered, in the interest of speeding up the game, why they never changed this rule so that you can just play your provisional ball for your 4th shot. Imagine you had been 250 yards down the fairway and had to do the walk back to the tee. Surely it would save time.
Read more at http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...st-ball-provisional/page6#5lZaGiBWWabCfssT.99

Nope - everyone would be hitting a huge number of provisional balls then weighing up whether they are better playing the original (under all its options) or the provisional. If you hit a poor provisional you would also want to find that before deciding the options on the first etc etc

Everything would grind to a halt!

I agree with Junior somewhat though. The idea that you can hit a tee shot (which goes into a bush), then hit a provisional, then walk down the fairway and find your first ball, see it's unplayable and then have to walk 250 yards all the way back to the tee sounds ludicrous to me. The whole point of a provisional is a time-saving exercise anyway isn't it? So why does it count when the ball is lost, but not when it's found and unplayable? Makes no sense to me. Especially when the course is busy.

 

[GeeJay]

Interesting thread.

So I've hit my ball into the deep stuff and have also played a provisional somewhere down the fairway.

Do I now have to spend all five minutes looking for my original ball or can I have a more brief search and then play on with the provisional under a one stroke penalty? Do I even have to look for the original at all?

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Interesting thread.

So I've hit my ball into the deep stuff and have also played a provisional somewhere down the fairway.

Do I now have to spend all five minutes looking for my original ball or can I have a more brief search and then play on with the provisional under a one stroke penalty? Do I even have to look for the original at all?

You don't even have to look, but if you of your PPs or FCs finds it (within 5 minutes) before you have hit your provisional again you have to go and identify it and play it if it is yours. It is worth noting that a provisional is only a provisional if you announce it as one using the word "provisional". If you really don't want to look for your first ball, just play another one without declaring it as a provisional and it becomes the ball in play

As for the penalty, if you decide to play on with your provisional, the shot you hit will be your 4th as the provisional would have been 3 off the tee (assuming it is your tee shot you hit in the clag)

EDIT: Just to clarify. You can hit your provisional ball as many times as you like from further back than where you think your original ball came to rest. It only becomes the ball in play if you hit it from a position further forward than where the original is likely to be.

 

[bobmac]

Interesting thread.

So I've hit my ball into the deep stuff and have also played a provisional somewhere down the fairway.

Do I now have to spend all five minutes looking for my original ball No or can I have a more brief search and then play on with the provisional under a one stroke penalty? Yes Do I even have to look for the original at all? No

Your fellow competitors can look for your ball though

 

[Capella]

Interesting thread.

So I've hit my ball into the deep stuff and have also played a provisional somewhere down the fairway.

Do I now have to spend all five minutes looking for my original ball or can I have a more brief search and then play on with the provisional under a one stroke penalty? Do I even have to look for the original at all?

You don't have to look for it. If and how long you look for your original ball is completely up to you. (Still, "helpfull" co-competitors might find it for you, even if you weren't looking, in which case it is found and your provisional is forfeit) And if you proceed to hit the provisional behind the point where you presume your original ball was lost, it automatically becomes the ball in play. Sometimes that is the better option (like when you are certain that even if you found you ball, it would be sitting deep in the bushes).

edit: Hawkeye and bobmac beat me to it

 

[GeeJay]

You don't even have to look, but if you of your PPs or FCs finds it (within 5 minutes) before you have hit your provisional again you have to go and identify it and play it if it is yours. It is worth noting that a provisional is only a provisional if you announce it as one using the word "provisional". If you really don't want to look for your first ball, just play another one without declaring it as a provisional and it becomes the ball in play

As for the penalty, if you decide to play on with your provisional, the shot you hit will be your 4th as the provisional would have been 3 off the tee (assuming it is your tee shot you hit in the clag)

Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[duncan mackie]

I agree with Junior somewhat though. The idea that you can hit a tee shot (which goes into a bush), then hit a provisional, then walk down the fairway and find your first ball, see it's unplayable and then have to walk 250 yards all the way back to the tee sounds ludicrous to me. The whole point of a provisional is a time-saving exercise anyway isn't it? So why does it count when the ball is lost, but not when it's found and unplayable? Makes no sense to me. Especially when the course is busy.

Within the context of the question you pose the answer is simple. Because you are the sole judge of whether a ball is unplayable and have alternative options from then.

When assessing which of those options to take you have, as the rules currently stand, the option to play another ball from the tee wi5h an uncertain outcome as to where it will end up.

Remove that uncertainty and you fundamentally change the balance of the remaining options.

Simple example - you hit your provisional OOB in a medal, so play another which goes into a water hazard down the fairway. Now you find your first buried in the bushes with nowhere obvious to drop behind and 5cl needed to get to a playable position in the semi-rough. Based on the known outcome of returning to the tee (your provisionals) you would now take 3 penalty drops to the semi rough and be playing 5 from there (rather than 7 after relief from the water hazard - or you might even wander a couple of hundred yards (or more!) back in line and plot a route from there if you felt this would save you a shot (won't save anytime!). You might even try at least one hail Mary hack initially etc etc all predicated on knowing the outcome of the option to return to the tee.
On the other hand it may be perfectly playable but be in a heavy lie with bushes in from of it and you hit a corker of a provisional - why not just pick it up and go play that?

You need to appreciate that the very existence of a provisional already goes against the principles of the game (because if you hit a good one you don't tend to look very hard in challenging terrain but smack it OOB and you will search for the full 5 minutes wherever it went!) but it's seen as a necessary and appropriate compromise ultimately based on the factual definitions of balls lost, or OOB. Extending it to situations where the player has choice, such as unplayable, isn't appropriate.

 

[Junior]

Nope - everyone would be hitting a huge number of provisional balls then weighing up whether they are better playing the original (under all its options) or the provisional. If you hit a poor provisional you would also want to find that before deciding the options on the first etc etc

Everything would grind to a halt!

I think that a player either believes his ball is lost, or it isn't. Therefore, the same amount of provisional should be played as before. 　

I see your angle though and its a good point. Players could play more provisional to try and gain an advantage if their first is in the bundu. Keep in mind that they will be playing 4 if they elect to play their provisional, whereas if they find there original ball, they would only be playing 3 under penalty from a drop or pitch out sidewise. I think that initially you might be right, but in time players would realise its not really that much of an advantage to hammer a load of provisional's.

 

[Orikoru]

Within the context of the question you pose the answer is simple. Because you are the sole judge of whether a ball is unplayable and have alternative options from then.

When assessing which of those options to take you have, as the rules currently stand, the option to play another ball from the tee wi5h an uncertain outcome as to where it will end up.

Remove that uncertainty and you fundamentally change the balance of the remaining options.

Simple example - you hit your provisional OOB in a medal, so play another which goes into a water hazard down the fairway. Now you find your first buried in the bushes with nowhere obvious to drop behind and 5cl needed to get to a playable position in the semi-rough. Based on the known outcome of returning to the tee (your provisionals) you would now take 3 penalty drops to the semi rough and be playing 5 from there (rather than 7 after relief from the water hazard - or you might even wander a couple of hundred yards (or more!) back in line and plot a route from there if you felt this would save you a shot (won't save anytime!). You might even try at least one hail Mary hack initially etc etc all predicated on knowing the outcome of the option to return to the tee.
On the other hand it may be perfectly playable but be in a heavy lie with bushes in from of it and you hit a corker of a provisional - why not just pick it up and go play that?

You need to appreciate that the very existence of a provisional already goes against the principles of the game (because if you hit a good one you don't tend to look very hard in challenging terrain but smack it OOB and you will search for the full 5 minutes wherever it went!) but it's seen as a necessary and appropriate compromise ultimately based on the factual definitions of balls lost, or OOB. Extending it to situations where the player has choice, such as unplayable, isn't appropriate.

I know what you're saying, that knowing your provisional is in a great position influences your decision on whether to take it or not - but there is still a downside that you are there having taken 3 shots, as opposed to taking the one in deep rough but having had one shot (you may find you're able to hack out onto the fairway and thus be there for 2 rather than 3). So it's not like people would just take the provisional every time just because it's better positioned. There's a still a decision to be made.

Anyway, it is what it is. According to what people have said above, if you want to take the provisional then you're better off not even looking for the first one. And no danger of having to walk all the way back to the tee for a third go.