Alan Clifford
Well-known member
Unless the longest side of the ball marker is more than 2 inches long.
Lining up putt using putter as guide
- Thread starter DickInShorts
- Start date
Unless the longest side of the ball marker is more than 2 inches long.
salfordlad
Well-known member
This post jumps to a rule completely unrelated to the discussion in this thread. We have been discussing 10.2b(2) which relates to pointing out line of play on the putting green. 10.2b(3) deals with the different issue of setting down an object to assist taking stance anywhere on the course.
In any event, your interpretation of that unrelated Interpretation also misses the key observation in it's first paragraph - that a player cannot set down a club to help the player taking a stance. If you wish to discuss 10.2b(3), a safer place would be a new thread.
salfordlad
Well-known member
This restriction applies only in the special case of an object manufactured to be a ball-marker and that has features (eg lines) to enable the ball-marker to assist in alignment. RBs have provided guidance to manufacturers and players that any such ball-markers that exceed certain dimensions and proscribed features are alignment devices and their use would breach Rule 4.3a.
However, any other objects that are not manufactured specifically as ball-markers are not subject to that 2 inch long limitation that you identify. Examples include tees, pencils, green repair tools etc, etc - they can be much longer than 2 inches and be used to aid alignment in the specific circumstance of being used as a ball-marker without transgressing any (current) rule. For those interested: https://www.usga.org/content/dam/us... to Ball-Marker Manufacturers (Final) (1).pdf
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
ITY..100% answers my pedantic question
salfordlad
Well-known member
? You actually made reference to 10.2b(3)/1, which has nothing to do with 10.2b(2). And the reference to 10.2b(3)/1's content was simply inaccurate. Also, post #8 made clear that setting down means putting an object down and letting it go.
rulefan
Tour Winner
I only used 10.2b(3) because it also uses the words 'setting down' which seemingly is not fully explained. Where did you get the clarification of 'setting down'?
salfordlad
Well-known member
Previous ruling. I agree it is not fully explained even though used in multiple places - I would like to see an "internal definition" included - there are already plenty of those.
Alan Clifford
Well-known member
You were refering to a ball marker. "Aligning ball with ball marker is no breach"
I also asked the usga about having a lead weight attached to a tee via a piece of string. This was termed illegal as the string could be considered an alignment device. An exception is made for conforming tees tied together. Typical golf logic; the same piece of string is, and is not, an alignment device.
salfordlad
Well-known member
Yes. But a ball-marker is not limited to objects manufactured to be a ball-marker. There is no rules breach for using a ball-marker that has a longest side of more than 2 inches unless it meets the special, defined limitations prescribed as an alignment aid. My post was to ensure others did not read yours as a statement that a ball-marker longer than 2 inches is illegitimate. Your post was pointing out, presumably, that aligning your ball with a ball-marker IS a breach if the player uses something manufactured to be a ball-marker but is, in fact, defined as an alignment aid.
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rulefan
Tour Winner
That is a compromise between the USGA and the R&A. Because of the well established tradition in GB&I of tying tees together (or tying them to a weight) and the USGA originally prohibiting the practice completely, they made a pragmatic decision in 2019.
rulie
Head Pro
Many items "could be" used as an alignment aid - alignment sticks, clubs, cigars, string, etc, but a breach of the Rules only occurs when they are used as such.
TheShortGolfer
New member
10.2b Other Help
(3) No Setting Down Object to Help With Aiming, Taking Stance or Swinging.
QUOTE: “Set an object down” means that the object is in contact with the ground and the player is not touching the object.
As long as he keeps contact with the putter while using it temporarily as an alignment device to align his ball then no penalty is occurred.
Consider this... how many players hold their club on their thighs or above their toes to ensure their feet alignment is right. In every fourball I have played at least one player does this before each shot. The same principle applies; as long as the alignment tool is being held in the player's hand, is not set down and is not providing alignment during the stroke then it's all legal.
(3) No Setting Down Object to Help With Aiming, Taking Stance or Swinging.
QUOTE: “Set an object down” means that the object is in contact with the ground and the player is not touching the object.
As long as he keeps contact with the putter while using it temporarily as an alignment device to align his ball then no penalty is occurred.
Consider this... how many players hold their club on their thighs or above their toes to ensure their feet alignment is right. In every fourball I have played at least one player does this before each shot. The same principle applies; as long as the alignment tool is being held in the player's hand, is not set down and is not providing alignment during the stroke then it's all legal.
salfordlad
Well-known member
Rule 10.2b has been rewritten, the new version in effect from January 2023. The 2022 discussion above only makes sense unless in the context of the 2019-2022 Rule book. In post #28 above, I was calling for an internal definition to be included on setting down an object. Happily, that is now there in the revised 10.2b(3) - the QUOTE line above.
The last sentence quoted above (bolded) does not hold in the case of a device defined in the Equipment Rules as an alignment device (an object designed as a ball marker that does not comply with the limitations identified in the Equipment Rules) - such an object cannot be used to assist alignment even if the player keeps holding it while aligning.
tobybarker
Active member
some ball markets have lines on them to assist with aiming. are these illegal, or are they being used illegally?
tobybarker
Active member
the rules are in a bit of a pickle over this one, aren't they? set down or not, seems to be a stupid distinction, especially on the green. can someone please summarise the answer and then close the thread?!
Steven Rules
Well-known member
The answer is maybe/maybe not depending on the specific item.
The are specific criteria used in the Equipment Rules (6.7) to determine when an object manufactured to mark the spot of a ball is an alignment device. I won't reproduce them here.
An object is an alignment device if it exceeds the stated dimensional specifications and advertising, marketing or intellectual property descriptions or claims related to the object indicates that it is primarily for the purpose of showing the line of play.
salfordlad
Well-known member
It's about more than just lines on a ball-marker.
The issue RBs needed to grapple with was entrepreneurial folk increasingly coming up with esoteric "ball-marker" designs that they could sell as helping you sink more putts. It is a non-trivial industry. They did that in the last couple of years by consulting on and then defining the limits that apply to any ball-marker with features to assist alignment. All the key parameters are now capped and anything that doesn't comply is an "alignment device" and new Clarification 4.3a/2 identifies when their use is a breach.
This thread has journeyed around, mixing alignment device issues (a device designed as a ball-marker with features that are outside the limits identified in the Equipment Rules) - which are Rule 4.3 issues - with the very different Rule 10.2 issues that relate to setting down an object to help with aiming, taking stance or swinging.
There is no pickle, you just need to read the separate 2023 Rules and not mix them up. If you have any specific question/uncertainty in your mind then pitch them as a new thread - as I noted above Rule 10.2 has seen significant changes this year, so posts #1-32 above cannot be assumed to be equally relevant now.
Steven Rules
Well-known member
As Salfordlad says: no pickle.
You can hold a club in your hands to help with alignment but you can't let it go while doing so. You can't use any other device (e.g. alignment sticks, swing trainers etc) under any circumstances to assist with alignment.
tobybarker
Active member
but you can't allow your putter to leave a mark on the dew to help you, even if you don't let go....?
