Lift Clean and Place

[NorfolkShaun]

We are under preferred lies at the moment.

This weekend we found you can clean and place if on the incorrect fairway, this to me juts seems plain wrong.

If you miss you fairway by a foot you cannot clean but if you miss by 20 yards you can.

Is this normal?

 

[AmandaJR]

I believe it's anywhere on the course cut to fairway height...so any old fairway will do

 

[backwoodsman]

Yes, normal. LR usually based on cut-length rather than location. And as preferred lies is in part a course protection thing, it somewhat makes sense.

Take your point though, but being on wrong fairway is often hindrance enough.

 

[Old Skier]

We are under preferred lies at the moment.

This weekend we found you can clean and place if on the incorrect fairway, this to me juts seems plain wrong.

If you miss you fairway by a foot you cannot clean but if you miss by 20 yards you can.

Is this normal?

its done to protect the fairways, any fairway, not just the one your on.

 

[Slab]

Agree with above but was playing LCP recently on one course and we were specifically told on that occasion that it applied only to the fairway in play

To be fair it doesn't really crop up as there are very few holes on any course that you could inadvertently play from the wrong fairway even if you tried to (I'd estimate way less than 5%)

 

[Fyldewhite]

It's supposed to give you the lie you are entitled to under normal ground conditions. That is, if you land on a fairway, any fairway, then you would expect a good lie. If you land in the rough you wouldn't. No less fair than under normal rules.....hit it 5 yards wide, get a bad lie, hit it 40 yards wide and get lucky! Of course this doesn't work on every hole so isn't recommended!

 

[rosecott]

As stated, winter rules are there to help protect the course.

The specimen Local Rule does not refer specifically to fairways:

A ball lying on a closely mown area through the green (or specify a more restricted area, e.g., at the 6th hole) may be lifted, without penalty, and cleaned.

Note: “Closely mown area” means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

 

[Spuddy]

I'm struggling to see how playing preferred lies protects the course (i know its mentioned in the specimen local rules). Are people less likely to take a divot from a nice lie with a clean ball?

 

[NorfolkShaun]

I'm struggling to see how playing preferred lies protects the course (i know its mentioned in the specimen local rules). Are people less likely to take a divot from a nice lie with a clean ball?

Was thinking the same.

 

[duncan mackie]

I'm struggling to see how playing preferred lies protects the course (i know its mentioned in the specimen local rules). Are people less likely to take a divot from a nice lie with a clean ball?

indeed - it's for the benefit of the golfer not to protect the course (although it can have a positive effect in this regard)

the primary benefit is associated with being able to clean mud from the ball; especially on the aprons and fringes.

 

[Spuddy]

indeed - it's for the benefit of the golfer not to protect the course (although it can have a positive effect in this regard)

the primary benefit is associated with being able to clean mud from the ball; especially on the aprons and fringes.

I think I've just realised what it means..... It's to stop irate golfer in knocking lumps out of the fairway after they duff it from a bad lie :swing:

 

[rulefan]

indeed - it's for the benefit of the golfer not to protect the course (although it can have a positive effect in this regard)

the primary benefit is associated with being able to clean mud from the ball; especially on the aprons and fringes.

LCP is primarily to allow for patches of bare earth, flattened worm casts, fusarium patches, unhealed divot holes etc. ie poor lies.

Mud on the ball is really covered by the other Local Rule, Lift, Clean & Replace. (LCR)


As the R&A put it to me, Preferred Lies/Winter Rules is a Local Rule that is used in particular circumstances, i.e. where ground conditions are such that the proper playing of the game is hindered but you still want to allow play to take place as close to “normal” as possible. It represents a compromise, an accommodation of the circumstances.

Protection of certain areas of the course is better done by GUR play prohibited.
To reduce the problem of divot holes on the fairway not healing during the winter, the R&A does not discourage the use of fairway mats.

 

[duncan mackie]

LCP is primarily to allow for patches of bare earth, flattened worm casts, fusarium patches, unhealed divot holes etc. ie poor lies.

Mud on the ball is really covered by the other Local Rule, Lift, Clean & Replace. (LCR)


As the R&A put it to me, Preferred Lies/Winter Rules is a Local Rule that is used in particular circumstances, i.e. where ground conditions are such that the proper playing of the game is hindered but you still want to allow play to take place as close to “normal” as possible. It represents a compromise, an accommodation of the circumstances.

Protection of certain areas of the course is better done by GUR play prohibited.
To reduce the problem of divot holes on the fairway not healing during the winter, the R&A does not discourage the use of fairway mats.

that will be why the Tour never use LCR even when the ball is picking up mud but the fairways are otherwise immaculate?

the problem with LCR is that it's to theoretical for the majority of golfers, and LCP is so prevalent. I completely agree that it's the perfect theoretical solution to most inland courses in the UK winter - I gave up trying to introduce it in the face of wider committee wisdom!

 

[rulefan]

I reckon the replacing accuracy with LCR matches that of replacing the ball after identifying it. It is surprising how often a ball that couldn't be seen is suddenly seemingly on a pedestal of rapidly grown grass.

 

[cliveb]

I have a related question:
Suppose preferred lies are in effect, and my ball is on the fairway, 3" from the first cut. Am I allowed to place the ball in the first cut provided it's within 6" of the ball's original position? (For example, there could be a really nice tuft of grass that would allow me to tee the ball up).

 

[Spuddy]

I have a related question:
Suppose preferred lies are in effect, and my ball is on the fairway, 3" from the first cut. Am I allowed to place the ball in the first cut provided it's within 6" of the ball's original position? (For example, there could be a really nice tuft of grass that would allow me to tee the ball up).

Yes, the only place you wouldn't be allowed to place it is into a hazard or onto the putting green (according to the specimen local rule)

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Interesting thread. I hooked my drive on our 15th onto the 14th fairway. Wanted to pick and clean assuming I could as it was a mown area but was unsure of the ruling and with players waiting to play on their proper hole and me wanting to proceed down the 14th towards the green I just got on with it. To be honest it didn't feel right doing it either especially in a match situation

 

[rulefan]

Yes, the only place you wouldn't be allowed to place it is into a hazard or onto the putting green (according to the specimen local rule)

However, if you were fortunate enough to find a conveniently placed tee already sitting in the ground within the specified distance (eg 6") then you may place your ball on that. oo: :whoo::thup: