Ladies - R&A Charter

[Deleted member 15344]

How does that work in practice?
If a club decides to open up the men's comps to all I thought that would include votes from men & women on the issue
How then can women (assuming they are in the minority of the clubs membership) prevent a vote to open up the women's comp as the men could simply outvote them (if they wanted to), unless it was actually men who either didn't vote or even voted against the women's comp being opened up

Unless men only get to vote on male issues and vice versa, which actually sounds weird because who's to say where the boundaries are for all the various club matters

Unless its actually two clubs of course which is a whole other matter

I made the recommendation to my Comp committee - we agreed that it would a good idea , then took it to the main committee and they also agree a good idea and to trial it - it proved successful and was fully implemented

The Ladies Comp committee dismissed the idea out of hand for their comps to be open up and that was it

Descions like that don’t need to go to a members vote - that’s what they vote the committee for

 

[Slab]

I made the recommendation to my Comp committee - we agreed that it would a good idea , then took it to the main committee and they also agree a good idea and to trial it - it proved successful and was fully implemented

The Ladies Comp committee dismissed the idea out of hand for their comps to be open up and that was it

Descions like that don’t need to go to a members vote - that’s what they vote the committee for

I wondered if it was just managed at that level
Presumably then (theoretically) it could just get brought up at AGM (women's comp) and put to a vote

 

[Big_G]

I made the recommendation to my Comp committee - we agreed that it would a good idea , then took it to the main committee and they also agree a good idea and to trial it - it proved successful and was fully implemented

My club are trialling this for the 1st time next month, nice to see that it has been successful at your place

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Why?

If women don't want to play golf and want to have children and work instead, then fine.
Most of my lessons comprised of ladies who were getting back into golf after raising a family and men who were too old and injured for football or rugby.

I think MiB raised this as a thread a while ago. It fits with many at my club, men and women. Funnily enough I was playing in a mixed comp a couple of weeks ago, really struggling to get a conversation going with the lady from the other pair when it came up that we had both come to golf after giving up competitive hockey. After that all was well. 3 out of our 4 ball came to golf after giving up other sports. Not scientific but very common.

My son played rugby, football and cricket in clubs for a number of years each. I've kept in touch with a few dads from each, I'm still on the junior committee of his cricket club. Every sport has problems getting juniors transitioning through to adult level. Very few carry on, golf is not alone. You may get 1 or 2 at most each year, often you can go 3-4 years without any juniors moving through into the senior levels. That is for boys / men but I see no reason why girls / women will be any different.

I agree that there should be encouragement for juniors, there is already plenty of that to be fair, but if you really want to boost playing numbers then target men and women in their mid 30's upwards.

 

[Dibby]

That's not a gender specific problem, though, is it? It is true for young men as well. Golf is a very time intensive sport (and it is not cheap either) and at certain times in your life there might just be other priorities. It is relatively normal to have young people who played as juniors, even if they did really well, to leave the game for a while when they've finished school and then hopefully come back some 10, 15 or 20 years later, once they've found their footing in life and have time and resources to spend again. But the chances that they do pick up golf are much higher when they have played as juniors. That's why it's definitely worth bringing young girls into golf. Also, a bigger talent pool will lead to a higher chance to get a few really good players who can become role models and cause a landslide effect like Se-Ri Pak did for South Korea.

Especially in the US and in the UK, two of the biggest if not the biggest golf markets in the world, the percentage of female players is ridiculously low. It is just such a huge potential wasted and every effort to change that should be applauded.

I have to wonder if this is a societal issue, rather than a golf specific issue. Is it not possible that in other countries a lot more people do things as a family or couple activity, whereas in the US and UK and lot of people are actually glad to get away from their partner to play golf, or do whatever other activity they do?

 

[Deleted member 21258]

I have to wonder if this is a societal issue, rather than a golf specific issue. Is it not possible that in other countries a lot more people do things as a family or couple activity, whereas in the US and UK and lot of people are actually glad to get away from their partner to play golf, or do whatever other activity they do?

I have always been surprised when I speak to people who me/wife play golf with, how many comment similar to what you say. Even couples we have come across, always surprised how many that still in the main play golf separately. I am certainly not judging or passing comment, just stating what is said.

Whereas I have always been very family oriented and love it playing with the family and its just great, holidays have become golfing holidays much to my wifes disgust :rofl:

I personally think they need to get young children playing, to help in the future and now. And also the sporty kind of people and get rid of the old boys school kind of stuff in clubs.

 

[Capella]

I have to wonder if this is a societal issue, rather than a golf specific issue. Is it not possible that in other countries a lot more people do things as a family or couple activity, whereas in the US and UK and lot of people are actually glad to get away from their partner to play golf, or do whatever other activity they do?

I suspect that is part of it. I know when my parents started playing a few years back, my mum only tried it out because she did not want to sit at home while my dad spent hours on the golf course. So they started together. They do play separately quite a bit as well, though and have even be away on golf holidays separately (something they had never done before in their 50 years of marriage) But even if men and women like to go their separate ways in their spare time, that still does not mean that it cannot be golf for the ladies, can it? I am single. I did not start golf because I wanted to accompany a hubby or boyfriend to the course. Same is true for quite a few other ladies at my golf club. We play golf because we like to play golf. Simple as. The problem is more that in the UK, many women wouldn't even consider golf as a hobby, because it is still very much perceived as one of those things that men do (as opposed to yoga for example).

 

[Papas1982]

So the US Open is coming to a conclusion after a great final day and yet for all the comments stating who’s responsibilty it is to grow the game, there’s been no chat of it on a golf forum........

maybe there’s simply not enough demand and we should just accept that it’s place in the game is where it should be.

 

[backwoodsman]

As some others have said, why bother encouraging young girls and women into the game? If they want to play, they will. Does it actually matter if the ladies game dies on it's ar*e?

And before the "sexist" card is thrown into the ring, the very same question can be asked of the men's (or indeed, mixed) game. After all, the world will still keep turning .

(Just thinking out loud ,,,)

 

[Capella]

Well, for one thing, it isn't even possible to watch the US Ladies Open in Germany. I did keep track by following the leader board and watching the occasional highlights video dropping on YouTube. But it's a bit pointless to talk about it on the forum. Also, I don't see a thread on the Memorial or the Italian Open either (which, granted, aren't majors, but still, chatting about ongoing tournaments is not so much a thing we do a lot of on the forum, except sometimes in the Fantasy game thread). I wouldn't neccessarily conclude that nobody is interested in watching the women's game from that. As I said, I'd happily watch more if it were available. There used to be a few YouTubers who (illegally, I presume) uploaded the GolfChannel coverage of all LPGA tournaments, but they have been banned now. That was to be expected and I don't criticize YouTube or GolfChannel for enforcing that, because they had every right to, but I am still a bit sad because that was my only way to watch the LPGA tournaments and I got quite invested in it.

 

[Papas1982]

Well, for one thing, it isn't even possible to watch the US Ladies Open in Germany. I did keep track by following the leader board and watching the occasional highlights video dropping on YouTube. But it's a bit pointless to talk about it on the forum. Also, I don't see a thread on the Memorial or the Italian Open either (which, granted, aren't majors, but still, chatting about ongoing tournaments is not so much a thing we do a lot of on the forum, except sometimes in the Fantasy game thread). I wouldn't neccessarily conclude that nobody is interested in watching the women's game from that. As I said, I'd happily watch more if it were available. There used to be a few YouTubers who (illegally, I presume) uploaded the GolfChannel coverage of all LPGA tournaments, but they have been banned now. That was to be expected and I don't criticize YouTube or GolfChannel for enforcing that, because they had every right to, but I am still a bit sad because that was my only way to watch the LPGA tournaments and I got quite invested in it.

Im not saying that nobody is interested, just that if ever a ladies tournament was gonna get discussed, I’d have thought this one had a chance been as it was a major and a thread on the ladies game had been started.

I think the lack lack of discussion just showed it’s place in the game. Imo the demand for it is catered for sufficiently. You can’t force the game to grow. In this day and age I don’t see there being a barrier for girls to get into the game. I got into sports that my parents got me into, not what was on tv.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

“It’s place in the game” ?

This is a male dominated forum , you only have to look and see the comments or lack of interest on the R&A Charter on here to see that it’s very much mail dominated and they don’t care about growing the Ladies game but If you really want to see it being discussed then just go to twitter and see countless people discussing both the charter and the US Open but there is no point discussing it on here people aren’t interested

Golf can’t survive on just the current normal deomographic of middle age people , right now in this is country it’s very much a male dominated sport but there are countless countries especially in Europe that have shown the a sport can stop becoming so dominated by one sex - there are countries that actually have more ladies then men playing

For a start there are barriers in place within this country that stop ladies from people and even more so ladies that work - there are clubs that still don’t allow women to join and there are hundreds of clubs around the country that still have the “ladies day on a week day and men have the weekend” attitude - why would a working lady even bother to take up the sport if there was no way for her to play at the weekend- clubs and Ladies Sections need to do far more to at least try to bring in more Ladies into the game

People won’t know the demand for something until they actually tried - we did and the level of ladies joining and playing at weekends increased a significant amount whilst also we had families who have joined the club.

The charter may not succeed and the demographic they target maybe wrong but there are still plenty things the governing bodies and golf clubs can do to encourage More participation

 

[bobmac]

Golf can’t survive on just the current normal deomographic of middle age people.

Why not?

 

[cookelad]

One thing that has impressed me about the golf club here is that the average of the ladies section must be a lot younger than the courses I was a member of in the UK (I have no official figures to offer to back that up).

It probably doesn't help where you have people like Lydia Ko claiming that would be retired from golf at 30 (or whatever age it was she said) which I don't think I've heard said by a male pro golfer.

 

[Papas1982]

“It’s place in the game” ?

This is a male dominated forum , you only have to look and see the comments or lack of interest on the R&A Charter on here to see that it’s very much mail dominated and they don’t care about growing the Ladies game but If you really want to see it being discussed then just go to twitter and see countless people discussing both the charter and the US Open but there is no point discussing it on here people aren’t interested

Golf can’t survive on just the current normal deomographic of middle age people , right now in this is country it’s very much a male dominated sport but there are countless countries especially in Europe that have shown the a sport can stop becoming so dominated by one sex - there are countries that actually have more ladies then men playing

For a start there are barriers in place within this country that stop ladies from people and even more so ladies that work - there are clubs that still don’t allow women to join and there are hundreds of clubs around the country that still have the “ladies day on a week day and men have the weekend” attitude - why would a working lady even bother to take up the sport if there was no way for her to play at the weekend- clubs and Ladies Sections need to do far more to at least try to bring in more Ladies into the game

People won’t know the demand for something until they actually tried - we did and the level of ladies joining and playing at weekends increased a significant amount whilst also we had families who have joined the club.

The charter may not succeed and the demographic they target maybe wrong but there are still plenty things the governing bodies and golf clubs can do to encourage More participation

In regards the bold, I simply mean that no matter how much money is thrown at it, there is a limit to what can be achieved. Different sports, activities, hobbies appeal to different people. Maybe golf simply doesn’t appeal to the masses of the female market.

Re the rest, I agree that weekend comps shouldn’t be limited to just men and that certain things don’t give the impression that women’s golf is given a fair crack at lots of local clubs.

That said I think it’s a complete red herring to suggest that stops woman taking up the sport. how many on here joined a club and played in a comp as their first round
I didn’t play in a comp for the first year or so of playing golf. I played with friends socially and found I liked the game. I didn’t get offered a round and say “sorry I’m not gonna try golf because I cant play when the ladies do on a Tuesday”.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

In regards the bold, I simply mean that no matter how much money is thrown at it, there is a limit to what can be achieved. Different sports, activities, hobbies appeal to different people. Maybe golf simply doesn’t appeal to the masses of the female market.

Re the rest, I agree that weekend comps shouldn’t be limited to just men and that certain things don’t give the impression that women’s golf is given a fair crack at lots of local clubs.

That said I think it’s a complete red herring to suggest that stops woman taking up the sport. how many on here joined a club and played in a comp as their first round
I didn’t play in a comp for the first year or so of playing golf. I played with friends socially and found I liked the game. I didn’t get offered a round and say “sorry I’m not gonna try golf because I cant play when the ladies do on a Tuesday”.

It’s not just weekend comps that stops ladies playing but the lack of any sort of golf at a weekend because a majority of the ladies that currently play golf during the week so it’s going to be hard to find people for a new lady to play with

There has to be a dramatic attitude change - it’s the same attitude you see on here - why should we bother - well the drop in club golfers across the UK would suggest that they need to target new people to play the game ( England has seen a rise especially with young males and juniors ). Then there is the old “I don’t want to play with ladies” as we saw on the Laura Davies thread - right now Golf has a sexist old age image that does nothing for the game - it needs to change attitude and the way it’s seen to help it thrive and grow especially with younger people and indeed ladies. Some clubs will never change but hopefully enough will get the message over

 

[Papas1982]

It’s not just weekend comps that stops ladies playing but the lack of any sort of golf at a weekend because a majority of the ladies that currently play golf during the week so it’s going to be hard to find people for a new lady to play with

There has to be a dramatic attitude change - it’s the same attitude you see on here - why should we bother - well the drop in club golfers across the UK would suggest that they need to target new people to play the game ( England has seen a rise especially with young males and juniors ). Then there is the old “I don’t want to play with ladies” as we saw on the Laura Davies thread - right now Golf has a sexist old age image that does nothing for the game - it needs to change attitude and the way it’s seen to help it thrive and grow especially with younger people and indeed ladies. Some clubs will never change but hopefully enough will get the message over

I don’t disagree at all In regards to attitudes about lady golfers and the image golf can have. I think the sexism issue may well stop ladies playing, the days they can play doesn’t imo have any bearing as that scenario is only an issue when joining a club and that’ll only occur once already into the sport.

I don’t know the figures, but would be Interesting to compare golf to other sports in regards to the make up of those that play regularly.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I don’t disagree at all In regards to attitudes about lady golfers and the image golf can have. I think the sexism issue may well stop ladies playing, the days they can play doesn’t imo have any bearing as that scenario is only an issue when joining a club and that’ll only occur once already into the sport.

I don’t know the figures, but would be Interesting to compare golf to other sports in regards to the make up of those that play regularly.

Of course the days they can play is an issue - no working person will start to play a sport knowing they can’t play at the weekend socially or in a Comp

It’s well known to all the issues within Golf especially with the attitude towards Ladies as it’s been plastered all over the news in recent years

Hockey is a perfect example of where a lot of ladies who work will look to play or rugby or football or cricket because there are always opportunities for the lady to play at the weekend.

 

[Papas1982]

Of course the days they can play is an issue - no working person will start to play a sport knowing they can’t play at the weekend socially or in a Comp

It’s well known to all the issues within Golf especially with the attitude towards Ladies as it’s been plastered all over the news in recent years

Hockey is a perfect example of where a lot of ladies who work will look to play or rugby or football or cricket because there are always opportunities for the lady to play at the weekend.

A lady golfer can play somewhere any day of the week. Maybe not as a member of a club that would later down the line want to join, but what percentage of golfers now are nomads. I’m sure if you polled 100 women on the street and asked them if they would play golfer a lot higher percentage of those that say no will do so because of the stuffy image than the day they can play.

The sports you mention are all team games, I think it’s fair to say that going into what is a male dominant sport may be intimidating also. Any team game they know will be with and against other women and so less daunting.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I have a 12 year old and the 2 mains sports I have always have played since she was born are badminton and golf. I have not pushed her into either but she has taken a shine to badminton and wants to play it both with me and at her school. Some of which I can only surmise is driven by the fact I play it. But when casually I asked her if she wanted to have a go at golf she just laughed and said it is a 'boring game for old men in silly clothes'.

Which did surprise me a bit as she may well equate me as a boring old man which is fair comment, but it was also interesting how she has got this perception that golf is for boring old men. And unfortunately perception always trumps reality.

You can not underestimate the need of young girls to be seen to 'fit in' and it seems golf has an image on her being able to do that. So anything that can be done to change the perception of the game is good in my book.