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Jeremy Corbyn

100% with Tony Blair on Corbyn today. That Corbyn took the stance he did over the Referendum was a very disappointing for me as a Labour voter. He is right - Labour have to make Brexit a Tory policy because if they do not they will are on shifting sands when attacking the Tory government post-Brexit - assuming that it does go ahead.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
100% with Tony Blair on Corbyn today. That Corbyn took the stance he did over the Referendum was a very disappointing for me as a Labour voter. He is right - Labour have to make Brexit a Tory policy because if they do not they will are on shifting sands when attacking the Tory government post-Brexit - assuming that it does go ahead.
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Large % of voters who voted leave came from labour heartlands. Why do you feel it right to disenfranchise a large part of labour voters and are more than likely actual members of the party to appease a few members who vote labour whi more than likely have never subscribed to the Labour Party in their life.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
100% with Tony Blair on Corbyn today. That Corbyn took the stance he did over the Referendum was a very disappointing for me as a Labour voter. He is right - Labour have to make Brexit a Tory policy because if they do not they will are on shifting sands when attacking the Tory government post-Brexit - assuming that it does go ahead.
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I’m stuck either way on this. The Brexit vote was a non-political party issue, although it could be argued that the Lib-dems tried politicising it and it blew up in their faces.

The party in government is tasked, via the abdication of the initial decision, by the people to enact the vote. Like it or not Parliament as a whole abdicated that responsibility.

Making it a party political issue risks a shift in voting patterns that could see Labour experiencing a mini Lib-dem implosion.

And if the Tories manage the spin the right way they could have a field day. Imagine the headlines, “Labour spit in the face of many Labour voters by ignoring their vote on Brexit,” or “warmongerer Blair implores Labour to ignore its voters.”

Will the Tories screw up its marketing so badly again? No. Would Labour be wise to align itself so obviously to Toxic Blair? No.

Labour are playing a good long game at present. Taking the Blair line is very risky.
 
As said recently Corbyn is having his cake and eating it over Brexit. He will not clarify his (and that also means the party) line on it, he and his inner sanctum will not make any clear policy statements, they just sit on the fence and wait to jump down on any side that suits their political agenda but isn't that the way Labour are treating just about every issue. Horrible slimy people with no honesty or backbone.
 
The Conservatives are currently self destructing so politically the best thing JC can do is sit back and let it happen. If he attacks too much they will start to unite again against the common enemy. Keeping quiet makes sense.
 
Old Skier said:
Large % of voters who voted leave came from labour heartlands. Why do you feel it right to disenfranchise a large part of labour voters and are more than likely actual members of the party to appease a few members who vote labour whi more than likely have never subscribed to the Labour Party in their life.
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A Party chooses the route it wishes to take on any matter. If the party makes a convincing case then supporters will go with it - if it does not, then they will not and will go elsewhere. That's representative democracy for you, so whilst I could see many labour voters being disappointed and disenfranchised - at least in the first instance - I really don't see your point and why you might be concerned for Brexit supporting Labour Voters. They simply choose what's most important to them and vote accordingly,
 
Hobbit said:
I’m stuck either way on this. The Brexit vote was a non-political party issue, although it could be argued that the Lib-dems tried politicising it and it blew up in their faces.

The party in government is tasked, via the abdication of the initial decision, by the people to enact the vote. Like it or not Parliament as a whole abdicated that responsibility.

Making it a party political issue risks a shift in voting patterns that could see Labour experiencing a mini Lib-dem implosion.

And if the Tories manage the spin the right way they could have a field day. Imagine the headlines, “Labour spit in the face of many Labour voters by ignoring their vote on Brexit,” or “warmongerer Blair implores Labour to ignore its voters.”

Will the Tories screw up its marketing so badly again? No. Would Labour be wise to align itself so obviously to Toxic Blair? No.

Labour are playing a good long game at present. Taking the Blair line is very risky.
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I find is disheartening that many voters will not even listen to what Blair says. Just because you don't like someone or vigorously disagree with them surely for your own understanding of any issue you listen to alternative points of view (hence why I listen to Farage on LBC). That you might choose to not believe a word Blair says does not make his opinions and assessments of less value to informing the debate.

And I agree that moving now to an anti-Brexit position might not be great popular politics - so maybe Labour wait until the shambles unfolds and in 9 months time we look at the chaos and damage of leaving as 'the deal' is put to the EU27 governments for ratification. At that point Labour just say NO.
 
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:
I find is disheartening that my voters will not even listen to what Blair says. Just because you don't like someone or vigorously disagree with them surely for your own understanding of any issue you listen to alternative points of view (hence why I listen to Farage on LBC). That you might choose to not believe a word Blair says does not make his opinions and assessments of less value to informing the debate.

And I agree that moving now to an anti-Brexit position might not be great popular politics - so maybe Labour wait until the shambles unfolds and in 9 months time we look at the chaos and damage of leaving as 'the deal' is put to the EU27 governments for ratification. At that point Labour just say NO.
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Its not about choosing to listen, it’s about trust. Blair has (rightly) earned a huge dollop of mistrust. There are dangers in missing gems.

And I did read every word of Toxic Tony’s opinion. And whilst there’s merit in what he said I feel in saying it he, because of people’s opinion of him, will have helped close the door to that route. He is better served by shutting up, or having his opinions said through a 3rd party.
 
SocketRocket said:
As said recently Corbyn is having his cake and eating it over Brexit. He will not clarify his (and that also means the party) line on it, he and his inner sanctum will not make any clear policy statements, they just sit on the fence and wait to jump down on any side that suits their political agenda but isn't that the way Labour are treating just about every issue. Horrible slimy people with no honesty or backbone.
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A perfect description of Chris Grayling
 
Hobbit said:
Its not about choosing to listen, it’s about trust. Blair has (rightly) earned a huge dollop of mistrust. There are dangers in missing gems.

And I did read every word of Toxic Tony’s opinion. And whilst there’s merit in what he said I feel in saying it he, because of people’s opinion of him, will have helped close the door to that route. He is better served by shutting up, or having his opinions said through a 3rd party.
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You might not trust him - but that does not mean you cannot listen. And I despair when he is told by Brexit supporters to shut up (just as Dominic Grieve, Amber Rudd, Phil Hammond are told to shut up about Brexit) - what is it they are worried about with Blair speaking out.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
You might not trust him - but that does not mean you cannot listen. And I despair when he is told by Brexit supporters to shut up (just as Dominic Grieve, Amber Rudd, Phil Hammond are told to shut up about Brexit) - what is it they are worried about with Blair speaking out.
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He hasn’t said anything I hadn’t already thought, and in him saying it, because of his reputation, he will, not might, have people switching off to that line of thought.

I’m a Remain supporter and want him to shut up because of the damage he WILL do to the opportunities to moderate elements of the process.

If you want to grab a life belt like Blair, crack on, but I feel he is very tainted and damaging to any campaign. Tories probably love his interventions.
 
Hobbit said:
He hasn’t said anything I hadn’t already thought, and in him saying it, because of his reputation, he will, not might, have people switching off to that line of thought.

I’m a Remain supporter and want him to shut up because of the damage he WILL do to the opportunities to moderate elements of the process.

If you want to grab a life belt like Blair, crack on, but I feel he is very tainted and damaging to any campaign. Tories probably love his interventions.
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I don't disagree over the risks of him speaking out - as much as I might argue that he does not deserve the reputation he now has it is just a fact of life. But note that his recent comments were directed at Corbyn and the Labour Party - not at the electorate in general - and not trying to change Brexit minds. He is looking forward to how Labour should position themselves - or prepare to position themselves - for when the reality of Brexit becomes evident. He wants Labour to be positioned to be able to make it very clear that Brexit and any associated shambles and chaos are down to the Tories.

As things are at the moment Labour remain jointly culpable - and we have such as Farage and Eurosceptic Tory fanatics spouting justification for no further referendum being evidenced by the claim of 82% support for Brexit based up the aggregate of Tory and Labour votes in the last GE. It's complete tosh - but what does Farage care - for as long as Labour remain where they are then Farage and his ilk will continue to spin their own definition of democracy around that 'fact'. Whatever anyone might assert about the outcome of the GE - it was NOT a referendum on Brexit - it cannot be simplistically reinterpreted into being one.

Waiting until October 2018 seems pragmatic - but start preparing the ground from now.
 
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Jeeza has the underlying differences in Labour between the Corbyn cult Remainers in the South and Brexiteers up't North.
 
Old Skier said:
The old one sided bias then, what about the large number of Labour MPs including Jeeza spouting justification for no further referendum or are they just normal and not classed as fanatics.
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I do not hear anything like the number and ferocity of anti-EU diatribes coming from the Labour Party - though they are clearly there. And as much as Kate Hoey and Gisela Stuart are strong Brexiteers they do not demonstrate (that I have seen and heard) quite the same visceral hatred of the EU as some on the right of politics. So no - I would not consider them Eurosceptic fanatics in quite the same way, you can choose to if you wish.
 
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