Jeremy Corbyn

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You're a mass of contradictions then - how can you make such a terrible statement? I'd have believed it from others but genuinely shocked to see it from you.

That's how it is I fear. I just don't see volunteering, charity work and donating to charities can in any meaningful way replace what government can do - as much as Cameron might like to pretend that it can. It can only supplement what government funds through our taxes.

 

[bluewolf]

Strange. As someone who occasionally ventures into a Wetherspoons of an afternoon, what I mainly see is badly dressed pensioners with a drink problem...

wait, no.... Sorry, that's the golf club isn't it? Easy to mix the 2 up.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Strange. As someone who occasionally ventures into a Wetherspoons of an afternoon, what I mainly see is badly dressed pensioners with a drink problem...

wait, no.... Sorry, that's the golf club isn't it? Easy to mix the 2 up.

stereotyping indeed Just as the Daily Mail and it's ilk have stereotyped benefits claimants in the minds of some/many - for political expediency conveniently ignoring or dismissing the truth behind the stereotype.

 

[Hobbit]

You're a mass of contradictions then - how can you make such a terrible statement? I'd have believed it from others but genuinely shocked to see it from you.

None of us are perfect FD. Our W'spoons is a tadge rough to say the least. As for contradictions, you may well be right. Christmas Day lunch is spent serving in a soup kitchen. And, courtesy of a caring employer I, and several others, do quite a bit of volunteering/charity work every month.

That's how it is I fear. I just don't see volunteering, charity work and donating to charities can in any meaningful way replace what government can do - as much as Cameron might like to pretend that it can. It can only supplement what government funds through our taxes.

Are you suggesting that helping out in the local food bank, serving in the local soup kitchen, helping out in the local autism school, helping out in the local Barnardo's home has no meaning? Coz if you are you're a typical champagne socialist who makes all the right noises before disappearing off home to a lovely dinner and a read of the Guardian. You want to abdicate your social responsibility to a govt coz its 'cleaner' and you won't get your own hands dirty.

Just because a Govt, of any political persausion, doesn't want to do it doesn't mean we should all turn our backs on those in need. Shame on you Hogie for that comment!

 

[FairwayDodger]

None of us are perfect FD. Our W'spoons is a tadge rough to say the least. As for contradictions, you may well be right. Christmas Day lunch is spent serving in a soup kitchen. And, courtesy of a caring employer I, and several others, do quite a bit of volunteering/charity work every month.

Indeed we are not and good on you for your charitable exploits. It's just confusing that with your experiences of volunteering you are still able to effectively deny the existence of poverty based on a few folk in a pub.

Don't mean to criticise you but I just thought that was a terrible statement based on a massive generalisation.

Possibly I lost something in translation....

 

[Foxholer]

...
Are you suggesting that helping out in the local food bank, serving in the local soup kitchen, helping out in the local autism school, helping out in the local Barnardo's home has no meaning? Coz if you are you're a typical champagne socialist who makes all the right noises before disappearing off home to a lovely dinner and a read of the Guardian. You want to abdicate your social responsibility to a govt coz its 'cleaner' and you won't get your own hands dirty.

Just because a Govt, of any political persausion, doesn't want to do it doesn't mean we should all turn our backs on those in need. Shame on you Hogie for that comment!

Kudos to you for doing so.

However...I believe there is a huge amount of work and fund-raising done by charities that I believe should really be done/funded directly by Government - in addition to the tax concessions that are provided. Central government - of either flavour - seems far too keen to ignore its responsibility and allow 'concerned citizens' to do its job for it - for their own reasons. While there will always be instances of needy, the simple fact that there are so many charity based food banks, soup kitchens and the like is an indication that something is fundamentally out of balance with society! I have no solution btw!

These are actually similar concerns that Corbyn has. However, I don't believe his 'solution' will work either - and will actually do more damage to UK (and its society) than good!

 

[SocketRocket]

Anyone who believes the welfare system is not being taken advantage of by far too many are IMO extremely naive and must live rather sheltered lives. Just take a walk around any town/city on a weekday and you will see the feckless in their droves, this is not a small issue as some lefty liberal elitist would make out, it's a serious matter than needs sorting out.

The armchair Socialists amongst us keep bleating the same old rhetoric about the nasty Tories and Daily Mail readers. they also completely ignore what people that disagree with them say and resort to the same old hackneyed diatribe.

Lets try and make it clear once more! No one is suggesting the genuine unemployed or disabled should not be helped by the state and especially where they can be helped back into employment. Those that are lazy and wasting our hard earned money need to be supported only to the point that they are also trying very hard to gain employment, even if it pays no more than benefits.

I hope most can agree on this; as to condone the feckless and lazy or pretend it's only a small problem is very wrong.

I know some will cry "What about the children" and "The Government should be ashamed there is a need for Food Banks" These are difficult and sometime complex issues that are not easy to find a simple answer to but I do take my hat off to many of the charities and volunteers that do some great work here.

 

[Ethan]

Anyone who believes the welfare system is not being taken advantage of by far too many are IMO extremely naive and must live rather sheltered lives. Just take a walk around any town/city on a weekday and you will see the feckless in their droves, this is not a small issue as some lefty liberal elitist would make out, it's a serious matter than needs sorting out.

The armchair Socialists amongst us keep bleating the same old rhetoric about the nasty Tories and Daily Mail readers. they also completely ignore what people that disagree with them say and resort to the same old hackneyed diatribe.

Lets try and make it clear once more! No one is suggesting the genuine unemployed or disabled should not be helped by the state and especially where they can be helped back into employment. Those that are lazy and wasting our hard earned money need to be supported only to the point that they are also trying very hard to gain employment, even if it pays no more than benefits.

I hope most can agree on this; as to condone the feckless and lazy or pretend it's only a small problem is very wrong.

I know some will cry "What about the children" and "The Government should be ashamed there is a need for Food Banks" These are difficult and sometime complex issues that are not easy to find a simple answer to but I do take my hat off to many of the charities and volunteers that do some great work here.

Of course there are some who take the proverbial or just con it. But I do not believe that is as widespread a problem as portrayed in the right wing press and is not a reason to crash the whole system, it is just political cover. I am firmly in the "There shouldn't be food banks in a country like the UK" camp.

By the same reasoning we would treat all politicians and ex-Radio 1 DJs as sexual predators or paedophiles and all who work in the financial sector as corrupt change the entire systems within which they operate.

 

[Hobbit]

Of course there are some who take the proverbial or just con it. But I do not believe that is as widespread a problem as portrayed in the right wing press and is not a reason to crash the whole system, it is just political cover. I am firmly in the "There shouldn't be food banks in a country like the UK" camp.

By the same reasoning we would treat all politicians and ex-Radio 1 DJs as sexual predators or paedophiles and all who work in the financial sector as corrupt change the entire systems within which they operate.

OMG! I feel myself wanting to agree with you... must go and have a cold shower.

However, I do feel that the benefits system does need tweaking. Why should some get in excess of £25k in benefits/credits/discounts? Equally, the cutting of support for the youngsters who are of home leaving age, or have left, along with some severe cuts to the benefits to the disabled is distasteful to say the least. Closing Remploy was not good...! And then there's the bedroom tax...

 

[bluewolf]

OMG! I feel myself wanting to agree with you... must go and have a cold shower.

However, I do feel that the benefits system does need tweaking. Why should some get in excess of £25k in benefits/credits/discounts? Equally, the cutting of support for the youngsters who are of home leaving age, or have left, along with some severe cuts to the benefits to the disabled is distasteful to say the least. Closing Remploy was not good...! And then there's the bedroom tax...

I think that most reasonable people from either side of the Political centre will agree on the fundamentals of this argument. Yes, there are people who take advantage of the system. there are people who make "lifestyle" choices regarding the Benefits Culture. I think we might disagree on the extent of the problem however.

I find the targeting of the Welfare state by large sections of the Media to be distasteful. Having a small group of Billionaires dictate how the Public should think is dangerous in the extreme. I'd like people who abuse the system to be prosecuted. Be they the "feckless welfare claimants" or the "Nasty Tax dodgers".

 

[SocketRocket]

Of course there are some who take the proverbial or just con it. But I do not believe that is as widespread a problem as portrayed in the right wing press and is not a reason to crash the whole system, it is just political cover. I am firmly in the "There shouldn't be food banks in a country like the UK" camp.

By the same reasoning we would treat all politicians and ex-Radio 1 DJs as sexual predators or paedophiles and all who work in the financial sector as corrupt change the entire systems within which they operate.

Is there any developed country in the world (other than maybe a few like Monaco) where if they had food banks no one would use them? I would say that if Food Banks were available at any time in our developed history they would have been used, whatever form of Government was in power.

Your suggestion that the Government is ' crashing the whole system' is rather extreme to say the least.

 

[bluewolf]

Is there any developed country in the world (other than maybe a few like Monaco) where if they had food banks no one would use them? I would say that if Food Banks were available at any time in our developed history they would have been used, whatever form of Government was in power.

I don't really understand the point you're making. I agree that foodbanks would have been used at most points in history. The important point is that they should not be required in a First World, Wealthy and progressive society.. I don't know if you've ever spent any time in a local Food Bank, but the people who visit them are not workshy, feckless chancers.

 

[SocketRocket]

I don't really understand the point you're making. I agree that foodbanks would have been used at most points in history. The important point is that they should not be required in a First World, Wealthy and progressive society.. I don't know if you've ever spent any time in a local Food Bank, but the people who visit them are not workshy, feckless chancers.

Did I suggest anywhere they were workshy? The point I made was quite clear, it suggested that if you supply a service such as food banks then there will always be someone who will use it, also, that there always would have been.

Regarding your comment that they "should not be required in a First World, Wealthy and progressive society" I see this as rather naïve. Do you honestly believe there is; or ever would be a Society whereby there were no poor or needy, I would suggest that will never happen. I would also suggest that this country is still a very nice and supportive place to live, just ask the people in Calais trying to get here if you don't believe me.

 

[bluewolf]

Did I suggest anywhere they were workshy? The point I made was quite clear, it suggested that if you supply a service such as food banks then there will always be someone who will use it, also, that there always would have been.

Regarding your comment that they "should not be required in a First World, Wealthy and progressive society" I see this as rather naïve. Do you honestly believe there is; or ever would be a Society whereby there were no poor or needy, I would suggest that will never happen. I would also suggest that this country is still a very nice and supportive place to live, just ask the people in Calais trying to get here if you don't believe me.

With all due respect, quite a lot of this thread has been squarely aimed at the perceived "workshy and feckless".. A typical target for the type of person who thinks that Foodbanks are a requirement in society.

I'll take your "naive" comment as a compliment actually. I prefer to use the term "optimistic" regarding the abilities of the human race to reach for something exceptional. I am constantly amazed at the way we show our capacity for performing breathtaking acts of courage, innovation, compassion, intelligence etc. I believe that we are capable of "doing better" than our current system..

With regards to your Calais comment. I would suggest that reading certain posts on this forum alone would show that there are certain sections that are the exact opposite of "nice and supportive". The same section that constantly replaces the term Refugee with Migrant. The same section that wants to close the borders to people who are fleeing oppression.

I know that we are often on different sides of the discussion, and I would never expect you to change your opinions. However, I'm still amazed at your ability to see things only in Black/White terms. You cannot possibly understand the incredibly complex situations that you comment upon. Neither can I in all honesty.

 

[SocketRocket]

With all due respect, quite a lot of this thread has been squarely aimed at the perceived "workshy and feckless".. A typical target for the type of person who thinks that Foodbanks are a requirement in society.

I'll take your "naive" comment as a compliment actually. I prefer to use the term "optimistic" regarding the abilities of the human race to reach for something exceptional. I am constantly amazed at the way we show our capacity for performing breathtaking acts of courage, innovation, compassion, intelligence etc. I believe that we are capable of "doing better" than our current system..

With regards to your Calais comment. I would suggest that reading certain posts on this forum alone would show that there are certain sections that are the exact opposite of "nice and supportive". The same section that constantly replaces the term Refugee with Migrant. The same section that wants to close the borders to people who are fleeing oppression.

I know that we are often on different sides of the discussion, and I would never expect you to change your opinions. However, I'm still amazed at your ability to see things only in Black/White terms. You cannot possibly understand the incredibly complex situations that you comment upon. Neither can I in all honesty.

I don't believe I see things as only Black and White. I have a bias in my opinions towards people needing to do as much as they can to help themselves and not expect the state to be a replacement to hard work. If you actually read my posts you will see that I also believe in the state supporting those that fall on genuine hard times and who are not able to work through disabilities.

Your suggestion that 'I cannot possibly understand the incredibly complex situations that I comment upon' is based on what exactly? You have no knowledge on what my experiences may be with such matters. I have great faith in peoples ability to change their lives for the better if they have the desire to do so but in saying this it should always be as a result of their own efforts and not on the backs of others.

 

[bluewolf]

I don't believe I see things as only Black and White. I have a bias in my opinions towards people needing to do as much as they can to help themselves and not expect the state to be a replacement to hard work. If you actually read my posts you will see that I also believe in the state supporting those that fall on genuine hard times and who are not able to work through disabilities.

Your suggestion that 'I cannot possibly understand the incredibly complex situations that I comment upon' is based on what exactly? You have no knowledge on what my experiences may be with such matters. I have great faith in peoples ability to change their lives for the better if they have the desire to do so but in saying this it should always be as a result of their own efforts and not on the backs of others.

You cannot possibly understand all the complexities of the Global economy. No one can.. All the experts in the World don't fully comprehend the complexity of the system. And it's this Global Economy that directly affects virtually every discussion that is had on this forum. From the Welfare state, to Pensions, the NHS, Immigration, Emigration, Sport, TV etc.. We all have our bias, and discussion is fantastic, but not a single person on this forum can offer an answer to the problems we currently face. Nor the problems we will face in the near future..

With regards to the comment about people working hard. It's this camouflaged assumption that certain sections aren't working hard. That they aren't doing everything they can to drag themselves out situations they find themselves in. From the disabled who can't find employment, to the vulnerable and abused who can't find help. It's this assumption that rankles.

Oh, and this comment "it should always be as a result of their own efforts and not on the backs of others." reads as though you are unwilling to offer help to those who need it, which contrasts with your earlier statement. It's a contradiction that makes your argument difficult to understand. You are either willing to help those who need it, or you're not..

 

[Hobbit]

I don't really understand the point you're making. I agree that foodbanks would have been used at most points in history. The important point is that they should not be required in a First World, Wealthy and progressive society.. I don't know if you've ever spent any time in a local Food Bank, but the people who visit them are not workshy, feckless chancers.

Apologies for just picking on the food bank issue, but there's just a couple of points. 10yrs ago there were 49 food banks in the UK, and now there are close on 500. The increase has been pretty much linear each year since 2005, so no party is better or worse in addressing this issue. Worryingly, the DWP are now told to send their clients to food banks to help them get over the first week until their benefit claim can be processed - a good idea at first glance, to get over the hump, but why not sort the speed of the system out.

An increasing number of food banks are now also helping with gas and electric payments.

As to who goes to food banks; you get both ends of the spectrum from the workshy to those who are very genuine. Some of those that find their feet will be back helping restock the shelves themselves. There's some great people in this country but, equally, there's some bottom feeders.

The hardest thing to see/deal with; the person that turns up with their pride in tatters, laid bare before you. I'd love to see every single MP do a few days in a food bank...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Apologies for just picking on the food bank issue, but there's just a couple of points. 10yrs ago there were 49 food banks in the UK, and now there are close on 500. The increase has been pretty much linear each year since 2005, so no party is better or worse in addressing this issue. Worryingly, the DWP are now told to send their clients to food banks to help them get over the first week until their benefit claim can be processed - a good idea at first glance, to get over the hump, but why not sort the speed of the system out.

An increasing number of food banks are now also helping with gas and electric payments.

As to who goes to food banks; you get both ends of the spectrum from the workshy to those who are very genuine. Some of those that find their feet will be back helping restock the shelves themselves. There's some great people in this country but, equally, there's some bottom feeders.

The hardest thing to see/deal with; the person that turns up with their pride in tatters, laid bare before you. I'd love to see every single MP do a few days in a food bank...

You may wish to add to your list of those attending foodbanks - those who have been sanctioned - for whatever reason - and have no money to feed themselves or their family. Or are they the 'bottom feeders' you refer to?

 

[bluewolf]

Apologies for just picking on the food bank issue, but there's just a couple of points. 10yrs ago there were 49 food banks in the UK, and now there are close on 500. The increase has been pretty much linear each year since 2005, so no party is better or worse in addressing this issue. Worryingly, the DWP are now told to send their clients to food banks to help them get over the first week until their benefit claim can be processed - a good idea at first glance, to get over the hump, but why not sort the speed of the system out.

An increasing number of food banks are now also helping with gas and electric payments.

As to who goes to food banks; you get both ends of the spectrum from the workshy to those who are very genuine. Some of those that find their feet will be back helping restock the shelves themselves. There's some great people in this country but, equally, there's some bottom feeders.

The hardest thing to see/deal with; the person that turns up with their pride in tatters, laid bare before you. I'd love to see every single MP do a few days in a food bank...

i think we are about 99% in agreement. Having spent a few hours recently at my local food bank, I've witnessed the utter desperation of those who attend. There will always be those who will take advantage of the good will of others. It's slightly ironic that we are talking about the relatively wealthy taking advantage of the desperate and downtrodden though.
Im hoping to be able to go back soon to help stocking shelves. It's an eye opening experience that certainly didn't change my view of the UK.

 

[Hobbit]

You may wish to add to your list of those attending foodbanks - those who have been sanctioned - for whatever reason - and have no money to feed themselves or their family. Or are they the 'bottom feeders' you refer to?

Why not go along there and do a few hours to find out first hand...