'It Was Not Like That In My Day'

[duncan mackie]

With the noticeable exception of pre shot routines and lining up lines on the ball I haven't really noticed much change over the last 35 years.

Shorter courses played as a 2 ball carrying clubs could be conquered in 2h 30m to 3h without seeming to rush - but by 1000th on a Sunday morning it would be taking 5 hours because the play was almost totally 4 balls. Those used to queueing to tee off on municipal courses at 0600h on a Sat will remember just how long such rounds could take!

Not all courses can be played without buggies in he sort of times people are quick to quote. The longer the course and the greater the gaps between greens and tees; the less proportionate impact being ready to play and pre shot routines has (although they still have the same absolute value).

A few things then changed - firstly fuelled by such apparent pressure on course access there were a lot of courses built in the 80 and early 90s. These spread such loads and, for a time, many courses operated sensible tee gaps (10 mins 4 ball course/ 9 mins mixed) and access was improved all round and the overall times came back to pretty much where we are today.

If a course if full then most of the time you are playing at the speed of the slowest group. It needs a fair amount of slack in the course for playing groups through to make any real practical difference to anyone (other than how some will feel!)

The more you pay in subs the less waiting around you will tend to do on a normal weekend round. However proprietary clubs have tended to reduce tee time gaps to support financial projections for a number of reasons over the last decade - and this has increased the perception of alow held up rounds for many as well as contributing to a small overall increase in rounds times.

If there are more than 4 groups out together then their speed becomes course speed - the increase in financial deals for groupsas visiting societies has meant that you get more of these and less visiting 2/3 & 4 balls that can mix up and be more dynamic about letting others through.

Medal competitions when the ground is firm and the rough is up are generally no fun for anyone...

In today's comp we ended up as a 4 in a field on 3 balls - stableford. Me and 3 cat 4 players with an average age of 70 overall. 4th group out. Whilst we were held up on the second and third this cleared (8 mins start times create this) and we throttled back a little to stay about 10 mins clear of the group behind for the rest of the round (4h dead). No one in the group lines up their ball on the green, all finish out where practical and all 4 teed off within 30 seconds - total. One player had a preshot routine of an initial swish - beyond the tee such matters occupied the time someone else was actually making a stroke. It wasn't rushed or held up and was, in a word, enjoyable.

For the most complete view on the overall topic see the R&A survey results on slow play which (also),conclude that things haven't really changed a whole lot in the last few decades.

 

[Snelly]

Times have changed. Golf is definitely slower.

Copying the mannerisms of professionals is a big issue, as is all the faffing about elongated PST, examine putts from 6 angles, lining up the ball etc, several practice swings and so on.

Even so, I am fine with people doing all this if they must, as long as when it is their turn to play, they have finished with it all and are ready to hit the ball.

I think this is what has changed. As a kid, I had it drilled into me that I had to be ready to play when it was my turn, irrespective of the shot, be it drive, fairway, chip or putt. If it is your honour then hit the ball.

People who take practice swings baffle me somewhat too although I can understand it for a feel shot; half a wedge, a chip or a putt. Everyone on this forum has hit enough shots to know what to do so just get on and do it. As my Grandpa used to say, you'll never hit a 180 yard 4 iron with a practice swing - it only hits fresh air and a bit of grass - so concentrate on the job in hand, hitting the ball cleanly in the direction you want it to go. And he never had a practice swing in his life but played county golf and got to scratch.

Still, he probably didn't know half as much as a typical 16+ handicapper on this forum who lasers in his distance, dials in his or her frequency matched, hard stepped 5 iron, takes three practice swings, thinks his key thoughts....... and slices it 120 yards into the trees....


The irony is that nothing in golf has changed really. You still have to get the ball in the hole 18 times. It is just that there is a billion dollar industry that tries to make it more complicated than that.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I can't imagine that back-to-back four balls can help - with everyone putting out or even in a better ball format not picking up til the last moment. You don't need many such 4-balls and your course is clogged. Like a crash on a motorway - it takes quite a while for the slow-moving queue caused by the accident to speed up again. As for motorways for golf. Get four such 4-balls back-to-back early in the day and if you have a fairly steady stream onto the 1st tee you'll be slow for much of the rest of the day.

And a favourite dislike of mine that cause 4-balls especially to be so darned slow - endless 'after you Claude' faffing about on the green; checking whether we are standing on each others lines and taking wide detours to avoid; declining to hole out 18-24" putts and instead marking; meticulous placing of ball after marking to get alignment lines perfectly along line of putt etc etc.

 

[Tiger man]

The population is more overweight?

 

[walliams8]

People who take practice swings baffle me somewhat too although I can understand it for a feel shot; half a wedge, a chip or a putt. Everyone on this forum has hit enough shots to know what to do so just get on and do it. As my Grandpa used to say, you'll never hit a 180 yard 4 iron with a practice swing - it only hits fresh air and a bit of grass - so concentrate on the job in hand, hitting the ball cleanly in the direction you want it to go. And he never had a practice swing in his life but played county golf and got to scratch

You cannot put slow play down to somebody having a practice swing .

You take a practice swing to get a feel for the shot and sometimes as part of a routine .

Two of us played last night and we both have practice swings and we got around 18 holes in 2 hours 45 mins.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Harry Vardon on four ball golf (did I mention that I had his book revised 1914...). Vardon refers to it as a new version of foursomes.

The new foursome is also a selfish game, because it is generally played with too little regard for the convenience and feelings of other golfers on the links. It is very slow, and couples coming up behind, who do not always care to ask to be allowed to go through, are often irritated beyond measure as they wait while four balls are played through the green in front of them, and eight putts are taken on the putting green. The constant waiting puts them off their game and spoils their day

So we see - it rather was like that back in the day - and clearly Vardon would consider four ball play as an 'evil' responsible for slow play. He really didn't like it

 

[Simbo]

Then maybe you are the problem because believe me, it used to happen!

There are numerous well documented reasons for slow play and the majority of them come down to lack of thought or consideration for others.

Then maybe you are the problem because believe me, it used to happen!

There are numerous well documented reasons for slow play and the majority of them come down to lack of thought or consideration for others.

70% of golfers in the R&A survey said they were happy with the pace of play, time taken to go round only accounted for 16% of people's reasons for not playing more golf.
Millions of things have changed since 1950.
Maybe the golfers who want to rattle round in 2.5 hours should pipe down a bit and accept that the majority don't want to race round and that 3.5-4 hours is reasonable.
The lack of thought and consideration for other golfers works both ways, faster players racing ahead on the fairway, getting in peoples line of sight when they are trying to play, wandering about on greens when people are still hitting onto them.

 

[Simbo]

My home course in Scotland where I grew up had a sign up which read

A 2 ball must not take longer than 3 hrs
A 3 ball must not take longer than 3 1/4 hrs
A 4 ball must not take longer than 3 1/2 hrs

Note the words 'must not'

Sadly, these timings have gone for one reason only............

Golfers copying the antics of the pros on tele.

What happens when a 2 ball goes out behind 2 4 balls?? How they going to play in their allocated slot??
And what happened to them if they weren't round in their allocated time??

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

70% of golfers in the R&A survey said they were happy with the pace of play, time taken to go round only accounted for 16% of people's reasons for not playing more golf.
Millions of things have changed since 1950.
Maybe the golfers who want to rattle round in 2.5 hours should pipe down a bit and accept that the majority don't want to race round and that 3.5-4 hours is reasonable.
The lack of thought and consideration for other golfers works both ways, faster players racing ahead on the fairway, getting in peoples line of sight when they are trying to play, wandering about on greens when people are still hitting onto them.

I agree that the time highlighted is acceptable for a 4ball but in reality, how often does it happen? 4.5hrs+ is becoming the norm nowadays and to me that is NOT acceptable.

Have you stopped to consider that while people are poodling round the course in their own little inconsiderate world in the middle of winter, half the members can't get a tee time because of the limited daylight hours?

 

[Smiffy]

5hrs 10 mins on Weds.... we were behind a 3 ball and apparently we weren't going to get held up

 

[Paul77]

Pay as you go Golf in my area on municipal courses are usually held up by "I'll hit another" as they can afford Nike Covert Pro drivers, but firmly believe that it's a game of Pinball down the fairway off every tree. I steer clear of those courses. I've never been one for practice swings. Puts you off, and does my head in when I see it, only for them to top it 50 yards.

I can't say slow play is really a problem where I play luckily. The courses are empty and I pick my times accordingly. What I find, is folk buying up expensive gear and zig zag their way down each hole. General disrespect for the course too, thumping tee boxes with drivers, and that sort of thing. I'm just glad I played golf with older folf when I was younger, where they carried a pitch mark repair tool to the shops with them.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

With the noticeable exception of pre shot routines and lining up lines on the ball I haven't really noticed much change over the last 35 years.

Shorter courses played as a 2 ball carrying clubs could be conquered in 2h 30m to 3h without seeming to rush - but by 1000th on a Sunday morning it would be taking 5 hours because the play was almost totally 4 balls. Those used to queueing to tee off on municipal courses at 0600h on a Sat will remember just how long such rounds could take!

Not all courses can be played without buggies in he sort of times people are quick to quote. The longer the course and the greater the gaps between greens and tees; the less proportionate impact being ready to play and pre shot routines has (although they still have the same absolute value).

A few things then changed - firstly fuelled by such apparent pressure on course access there were a lot of courses built in the 80 and early 90s. These spread such loads and, for a time, many courses operated sensible tee gaps (10 mins 4 ball course/ 9 mins mixed) and access was improved all round and the overall times came back to pretty much where we are today.

If a course if full then most of the time you are playing at the speed of the slowest group. It needs a fair amount of slack in the course for playing groups through to make any real practical difference to anyone (other than how some will feel!)

The more you pay in subs the less waiting around you will tend to do on a normal weekend round. However proprietary clubs have tended to reduce tee time gaps to support financial projections for a number of reasons over the last decade - and this has increased the perception of alow held up rounds for many as well as contributing to a small overall increase in rounds times.

If there are more than 4 groups out together then their speed becomes course speed - the increase in financial deals for groupsas visiting societies has meant that you get more of these and less visiting 2/3 & 4 balls that can mix up and be more dynamic about letting others through.

Medal competitions when the ground is firm and the rough is up are generally no fun for anyone...

In today's comp we ended up as a 4 in a field on 3 balls - stableford. Me and 3 cat 4 players with an average age of 70 overall. 4th group out. Whilst we were held up on the second and third this cleared (8 mins start times create this) and we throttled back a little to stay about 10 mins clear of the group behind for the rest of the round (4h dead). No one in the group lines up their ball on the green, all finish out where practical and all 4 teed off within 30 seconds - total. One player had a preshot routine of an initial swish - beyond the tee such matters occupied the time someone else was actually making a stroke. It wasn't rushed or held up and was, in a word, enjoyable.

For the most complete view on the overall topic see the R&A survey results on slow play which (also),conclude that things haven't really changed a whole lot in the last few decades.

BiB - I agree and think this is one reason rounds take the time they do. Four or more 4balls back-to-back early in the day and that is basically the course speed for all day.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Times have changed. Golf is definitely slower.

Copying the mannerisms of professionals is a big issue, as is all the faffing about elongated PST, examine putts from 6 angles, lining up the ball etc, several practice swings and so on.

Even so, I am fine with people doing all this if they must, as long as when it is their turn to play, they have finished with it all and are ready to hit the ball.

I think this is what has changed. As a kid, I had it drilled into me that I had to be ready to play when it was my turn, irrespective of the shot, be it drive, fairway, chip or putt. If it is your honour then hit the ball.

People who take practice swings baffle me somewhat too although I can understand it for a feel shot; half a wedge, a chip or a putt. Everyone on this forum has hit enough shots to know what to do so just get on and do it. As my Grandpa used to say, you'll never hit a 180 yard 4 iron with a practice swing - it only hits fresh air and a bit of grass - so concentrate on the job in hand, hitting the ball cleanly in the direction you want it to go. And he never had a practice swing in his life but played county golf and got to scratch.

Still, he probably didn't know half as much as a typical 16+ handicapper on this forum who lasers in his distance, dials in his or her frequency matched, hard stepped 5 iron, takes three practice swings, thinks his key thoughts....... and slices it 120 yards into the trees....


The irony is that nothing in golf has changed really. You still have to get the ball in the hole 18 times. It is just that there is a billion dollar industry that tries to make it more complicated than that.

Bib - and this

 

[Paul77]

One of the reasons I won't be joining the club close to me is purely because of the amount of 4 balls I see out early doors when I pass going to work. If this sets the course speed for the day in general terms, then it's a no from me

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

One of the reasons I won't be joining the club close to me is purely because of the amount of 4 balls I see out early doors when I pass going to work. If this sets the course speed for the day in general terms, then it's a no from me

Problem is exacerbated when there is a steady flow of players on the 1st directly after the 4balls.

 

[Crazyface]

I can't imagine that back-to-back four balls can help - with everyone putting out or even in a better ball format not picking up til the last moment. You don't need many such 4-balls and your course is clogged. Like a crash on a motorway - it takes quite a while for the slow-moving queue caused by the accident to speed up again. As for motorways for golf. Get four such 4-balls back-to-back early in the day and if you have a fairly steady stream onto the 1st tee you'll be slow for much of the rest of the day.

And a favourite dislike of mine that cause 4-balls especially to be so darned slow - endless 'after you Claude' faffing about on the green; checking whether we are standing on each others lines and taking wide detours to avoid; declining to hole out 18-24" putts and instead marking; meticulous placing of ball after marking to get alignment lines perfectly along line of putt etc etc.

so it's ok to walk all over someones line. Pressure someone who's got a good round going to get on with their putting. Do you win anything?

 

[ger147]

I can't imagine that back-to-back four balls can help - with everyone putting out or even in a better ball format not picking up til the last moment. You don't need many such 4-balls and your course is clogged. Like a crash on a motorway - it takes quite a while for the slow-moving queue caused by the accident to speed up again. As for motorways for golf. Get four such 4-balls back-to-back early in the day and if you have a fairly steady stream onto the 1st tee you'll be slow for much of the rest of the day.

And a favourite dislike of mine that cause 4-balls especially to be so darned slow - endless 'after you Claude' faffing about on the green; checking whether we are standing on each others lines and taking wide detours to avoid; declining to hole out 18-24" putts and instead marking; meticulous placing of ball after marking to get alignment lines perfectly along line of putt etc etc.

From the Etiquette section of the R&A Rules of Golf...

"On the putting green, you should be careful not stand on another player’s line of putt or, when he is putting, cast a shadow over his line."

Seems like good etiquette is fine as long as it doesn't hold you up eh?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

From the Etiquette section of the R&A Rules of Golf...

"On the putting green, you should be careful not stand on another player’s line of putt or, when he is putting, cast a shadow over his line."

Seems like good etiquette is fine as long as it doesn't hold you up eh?

All I am saying is that in a 4ball situation this can end up taking a lot of time - especially when players also don't hole out from 18" but mark and stand aside.

 

[Smiffy]

Got to be honest, I had playing partners on Wednesday marking their balls literally 12" from the hole because it was a competition.
I could understand it if they were clubhouse leaders, but with 11 points under their belt after 10 holes I don't think it really mattered did it?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Got to be honest, I had playing partners on Wednesday marking their balls literally 12" from the hole because it was a competition.
I could understand it if they were clubhouse leaders, but with 11 points under their belt after 10 holes I don't think it really mattered did it?

..and in many if not most 4ball scenarios we won't be playing a serious competition in any case. Far too much faffing about on the greens when it doesn't really matter.