Is there a way for SSS to be assessed?

[dufferman]

Our course, from the white blocks, plays as SSS 71. CSS Sometimes drops down one, but this weekend for example it did not.

Off the yellow blocks, it's an SSS 70, which often drops down to 69.

With a par of 72, it can be very difficult to get a cut. I've hit buffer / shot under handicap quite a bit this year (albeit only one or two shots under) but not really seen my handicap move. I had one round of 77 which dropped me 2 full shots, I've been at pretty much the same handicap since (as in, the odd .2 reduction, the odd .1 gain).

I have spoken to members who have been there a while, and they tell me people have actually left because reducing their handicap is too difficult... you can shoot 4 under off the yellow blocks and only receive a .2 cut!!

So, can a committee or captain or something change the SSS so that it becomes 72 off the white blocks, so a good round actually results in a cut? Or would the CSS simply drop 2 shots instead of one therefor making the SSS change irrelevant (I fear this is the answer!)?

 

[Canary_Yellow]

Our course, from the white blocks, plays as SSS 71. CSS Sometimes drops down one, but this weekend for example it did not.

Off the yellow blocks, it's an SSS 70, which often drops down to 69.

With a par of 72, it can be very difficult to get a cut. I've hit buffer / shot under handicap quite a bit this year (albeit only one or two shots under) but not really seen my handicap move. I had one round of 77 which dropped me 2 full shots, I've been at pretty much the same handicap since (as in, the odd .2 reduction, the odd .1 gain).

I have spoken to members who have been there a while, and they tell me people have actually left because reducing their handicap is too difficult... you can shoot 4 under off the yellow blocks and only receive a .2 cut!!

So, can a committee or captain or something change the SSS so that it becomes 72 off the white blocks, so a good round actually results in a cut? Or would the CSS simply drop 2 shots instead of one therefor making the SSS change irrelevant (I fear this is the answer!)?

SSS is allocated by CONGU, or on their behalf, I believe. It's primarily based on the length of the course.

If you do a google search, it explains it. It's not really linked to difficulty per se, pretty much entirely down to length. So if within the appropriate boundaries, it wouldn't be adjusted.

I don't really understand the issue though, doesn't it just mean everyones handicaps travel very well? You'd think that CSS would also be above SSS if it was very difficult, but I'm not an expert.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

SSS can be reasssed by a course assessor.

And the reason why people might be shooting under their HC is because the course rating is reflective of the difficulty of the course. Would they shoot those sorts of a course where the SSS is above par ?

If the course is regualry harder than the SSS I would expect the CSS would on most occasions go one or two above SSS ?

If the SSS was changed the CSS can only drop one from SSS

 

[dufferman]

I'm not great with SSS, CSS etc, but the reason I posted this is this:

It feels like, after a good round of golf, you do not get rewarded. I've shot a few under par, thought I'd played well in the wind and rain or whatever, then found that CSS is down to 70 so I don't get much of a cut. People have left the course for this reason - playing well but not seeing their handicap cut.

We have a fair amount of wind on our course, the final few holes can be a slog, especially the SI2 par 4 15th. If the course is rated just on length, then I can see why it might seem a tougher course to play!

 

[bladeplayer]

Our course, from the white blocks, plays as SSS 71. CSS Sometimes drops down one, but this weekend for example it did not.

Off the yellow blocks, it's an SSS 70, which often drops down to 69.

With a par of 72, it can be very difficult to get a cut. I've hit buffer / shot under handicap quite a bit this year (albeit only one or two shots under) but not really seen my handicap move. I had one round of 77 which dropped me 2 full shots, I've been at pretty much the same handicap since (as in, the odd .2 reduction, the odd .1 gain).

I have spoken to members who have been there a while, and they tell me people have actually left because reducing their handicap is too difficult... you can shoot 4 under off the yellow blocks and only receive a .2 cut!!

So, can a committee or captain or something change the SSS so that it becomes 72 off the white blocks, so a good round actually results in a cut? Or would the CSS simply drop 2 shots instead of one therefor making the SSS change irrelevant (I fear this is the answer!)?

..
very same in our place mate , that and too many cat 3 players have alot of the single and low guys playing away , par 72 sss off whites 70 sss off the blues 71
css 38 pts most comps , sometimes 39 cat. 1 guys getting .1 for 37 pts was last straw
Course needs reevaluating crowd in our place no inerest in getting it done other option we have that they wont consider is shortening the short par 5 to a par 4 and going par 71 ..

 

[Canary_Yellow]

I'm not great with SSS, CSS etc, but the reason I posted this is this:

It feels like, after a good round of golf, you do not get rewarded. I've shot a few under par, thought I'd played well in the wind and rain or whatever, then found that CSS is down to 70 so I don't get much of a cut. People have left the course for this reason - playing well but not seeing their handicap cut.

We have a fair amount of wind on our course, the final few holes can be a slog, especially the SI2 par 4 15th. If the course is rated just on length, then I can see why it might seem a tougher course to play!

However, if CSS is often lower than SSS, that would suggest that it's not that difficult, hence why people shoot under par, but that's not relevant for handicap purposes.

 

[ParParTripleBogey]

We rarely see CSS drop below SSS but can occasionally see it increase by one if the wind blows a bit. Im not sure what effect increasing SSS has since all that really matters is how the entire field play - increasing SSS by one stroke has same net effect for all players and as such, you might just see CSS be reduced more often or even by two strokes. Not sure it's the right solution.

Suppose it depends on the spread of players across categories. Might be that one or more categories are skewing CSS to the detriment of others. Would be interested in hearing what CONGU had to say to such circumstances.

Also, for players who feel the SSS is holding them back, does playing away result in better (relative) scoring? If proving hard to be cut implies you are better than your home handicap suggests, playing away should see more favourable scoring?

 

[IanG]

Until this year our SSS was 72 and CSS very often rose to 73. This season, after a re-rating SSS rose to 73 and in most comps this year CSS has (unsurprisingly) remained at 73. In very benign conditions, as CSS can now only drop to 72, that will have a slight downward effect on handicaps. In contrast, on difficult days CSS can now rise to 76 without becoming reductions only - so a slight upward effect on handicaps. On balance it makes no discernible difference as far as I can see.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I'm not great with SSS, CSS etc, but the reason I posted this is this:

It feels like, after a good round of golf, you do not get rewarded. I've shot a few under par, thought I'd played well in the wind and rain or whatever, then found that CSS is down to 70 so I don't get much of a cut. People have left the course for this reason - playing well but not seeing their handicap cut.

We have a fair amount of wind on our course, the final few holes can be a slog, especially the SI2 par 4 15th. If the course is rated just on length, then I can see why it might seem a tougher course to play!

Remember though it's a good round of golf relative to SSS - the HCs are based on the SSS so when someone says they don't get a reward for a good round they are judging that round against par not against the SSS

When at a course that has SSS above par it's that way for a reason - people don't go shooting way below their HC.

And the new rating isn't based just on length

 

[bladeplayer]

We rarely see CSS drop below SSS but can occasionally see it increase by one if the wind blows a bit. Im not sure what effect increasing SSS has since all that really matters is how the entire field play - increasing SSS by one stroke has same net effect for all players and as such, you might just see CSS be reduced more often or even by two strokes. Not sure it's the right solution.

Suppose it depends on the spread of players across categories. Might be that one or more categories are skewing CSS to the detriment of others. Would be interested in hearing what CONGU had to say to such circumstances.

Also, for players who feel the SSS is holding them back, does playing away result in better (relative) scoring? If proving hard to be cut implies you are better than your home handicap suggests, playing away should see more favourable scoring?

..
More cuts and buffer away from home in our group, in fairness most are scratch cups so the cat 3's dont effect it

 

[patricks148]

the SSS and CSS are lower due to the fact a lot of the players in the comps make buffer, so this in my eyes is and easier course than one that is same as par or above it.

 

[jim8flog]

You need to look at this slightly the other way round.

There was a time when the par on a course and the SSS were the same. It was only when they allowed clubs to change the par based upon difficulty that the two became different on some courses.

So as already been said compare your score against the CSS or SSS to judge how good a round is.


There are guides you can read on how the SSS is assessed eg www.englandgolf.org/documents/Guide_to_SSS.pdf

Only a certified person can change your courses SSS which is done via the local Authority (County). Your course can request a reassessment but it does have to be paid for.
but

 

[JohnnyDee]

We made some length changes (increases) a few years back and our Par 70 SSS 70 was reassessed to Par 70 SSS 71 by some official blighter. It now nearly always plays to a CSS of 71.

Occasionally this will go up or down by one, and oddly this past weekend for the 5-Day members comp it actually went up to 74 although that was with a really small field, but I'd say the majority of comps it plays to CSS 71.

 

[TheDiablo]

Your focus is on par too much, which is an entirely arbritrary figure. Youll have some holes on the course that could play as either 3 or a 4, or a 4 or 5, with say 15/20 yards added. You should be measuring yourself and your rounds against SSS. An SSS below 'par' actually indicates that you play an 'easier' course than relative and so you should be shooting below par more often than if your par and sss were the same.

Out of interest, your very local - where do you play mate?

 

[TheDiablo]

Also, without being cynical I highly doubt someone would leave a course and membership that they truely valued for this reason! Sounds very much like hearsay to me and potentially covering up other issues. Possibly a very minor contributing factor but surely nothing more than that.

If genuine, would be very interested to hear exactly how easy they found it to reduce their handicaps when they went elsewhere!

 

[patricks148]

Also, without being cynical I highly doubt someone would leave a course and membership that they truely valued for this reason! Sounds very much like hearsay to me and potentially covering up other issues. Possibly a very minor contributing factor but surely nothing more than that.

If genuine, would be very interested to hear exactly how easy they found it to reduce their handicaps when they went elsewhere!

totally agree, i was at a local parkland course and found it easier to get my handicap cut there with the CSS sometimes 2 under par compared to the links course i was a member at with ithe SSS being 2 over

 

[rosecott]

We made some length changes (increases) a few years back and our Par 70 SSS 70 was reassessed to Par 70 SSS 71 by some official blighter. It now nearly always plays to a CSS of 71.

Occasionally this will go up or down by one, and oddly this past weekend for the 5-Day members comp it actually went up to 74 although that was with a really small field, but I'd say the majority of comps it plays to CSS 71.

Johnny’s post shows that, in terms of handicap, the focus of any score achieved is on SSS/CSS.

Shooting nett par on Dufferman’s course is playing one worse than playing exactly to handicap off whites and two worse off yellows.

Shooting nett par on Johnny’s course is playing one better than playing exactly to handicap.

The difference in the par/SSS relationship is a clear measure of the difference in difficulty between the two courses.

If, as Dufferman says, CSS regularly reduces by one from SSS, then that speaks volumes about the lack of difficulty in playing to handicap.

As has been said elsewhere, players need to be educated to be aware that SSS is the target, not par.

 

[dufferman]

Also, without being cynical I highly doubt someone would leave a course and membership that they truely valued for this reason! Sounds very much like hearsay to me and potentially covering up other issues. Possibly a very minor contributing factor but surely nothing more than that.

If genuine, would be very interested to hear exactly how easy they found it to reduce their handicaps when they went elsewhere!

Hoebridge GC in Woking. It's a great course, I love it there, just a shame the course plays so easy in comps! A lot of people know people who have left because of it, I actually played in a mixed Stableford with a lady who's husband left the course for that reason.

 

[duncan mackie]

Hoebridge GC in Woking. It's a great course, I love it there, just a shame the course plays so easy in comps! A lot of people know people who have left because of it, I actually played in a mixed Stableford with a lady who's husband left the course for that reason.

It's one of the few courses that I don't understand the ratings. One possible reason is that despite all the minutiae of the rating system the result gets rounded - in this case I suspect the white SSS is probably 71.4.

Players based there will have strong handicaps overall.

 

[TheDiablo]

Hoebridge GC in Woking. It's a great course, I love it there, just a shame the course plays so easy in comps! A lot of people know people who have left because of it, I actually played in a mixed Stableford with a lady who's husband left the course for that reason.

Really nice track, always enjoy Hoebridge. 2nd best Muni in the area IMO behind Pine Ridge which is no bad thing! Your body always known youve played 18 holes afterwards too!

At the end of the day though, it is a muni and therefore it is always likely to set up 'easier' than its yardage. With how busy and slow it gets on nice weekends (once the non-members get on) then its in the best interest of all involved to get as many people through the course as possible, losing as few balls as possible and shooting good scores - this means theyll return. Low rough, nice pins etc so you'll often have a nice set up for those weekend comps.

Also, as I said earlier you need to compare your scores against SSS. To demonstrate how arbitrary 'par' is, stick your 3rd hole forward by 50 yards and youve a long par 4 thats massively wide open with very little trouble about and would be a shot hole for anyone in Cat 2. Suddenly youve got a Par 71 SSS 71 course, and those 50 yards less on the hole would over time lead to maybe 0.1/0.2 average lower scores per round, yet youve lost a whole shot against par.

I still do doubt this being a main reason for people leaving but I'll take your word for it! People may want a tougher test of their golf and use this as the reason, but also the restricted members only times and little chance to get round in a weekend afternoon or midweek twilight in sub 4hrs 30 plus all the kids parties screaming around the mini golf and foot golf every weekend would be enough for most!