In or Out?

[rulie]

That doesn't actually answer the question asked.
But the answer is unknown, as the presence or absence of another red stake - on the corner that is (just) 'out of frame' needs to be known.
I'd hazard a guess, due to the diligent marking shown, that there would be a stake though, so 'in the hazard'.

I'm not sure there is an answer to the "what if" question without knowing the Local Rules for that course. I can't tell if the player's heel is inside or outside the straight line between the two bottom stakes.

 

[phillarrow]

The "long grass" is irrelevant unless the edge of penalty area is defined in the Local Rules as the "line" separating short grass and long grass. If the edge is not defined in the Local Rules, the edge is defined by the stakes and the line from stake to stake, and a line joining two stakes is a straight line. I actually carry fishing line in my referee's bag so that I can go stake to stake when required.

Cheers. I still think it would be better if the Rules of golf included the word "straight" but hey ho.

 

[Foxholer]

Cheers. I still think it would be better if the Rules of golf included the word "straight" but hey ho.

That would be a bit daft, imo, for the likes of the situation in the picture (which seems quite 'fair' to me)....if within, say, 6 inches of the 'hazard'. That's better than within 6 inches of the 'hazard' in some areas and a couple of feet in others. Mind you, playing from those areas would only limit slightly so not really a 'penalty'.

 

[rulie]

Cheers. I still think it would be better if the Rules of golf included the word "straight" but hey ho.

The Rules don't need to include "straight" for a line between two stakes. It is straight unless the Local Rules say otherwise.
The Rules do say "the line between the outside points of the stakes at ground level". Use of "the" indicates there is only one line. If the Rules wanted to say anything else, they would use "a line".

 

[RichA]

In.

 

[Foxholer]

The Rules don't need to include "straight" for a line between two stakes. It is straight unless the Local Rules say otherwise.
The Rules do say "the line between the outside points of the stakes at ground level". Use of "the" indicates there is only one line. If the Rules wanted to say anything else, they would use "a line".

I'm with Phillarow - at least for OB definition! For clarity, it should (or, at least would be better to) say '...straight line...'. To me, 'one line' doesn't require it to be straight!
Basically, wherever the boundary (of whatever is to be marked) is not straight, a line of the appropriate colour should be used. If that is impractical, sufficient stakes used to absolutely minimise the effect of the curve and/or the card noted appropriately.

 

[Colin L]

When defined by stakes or a fence, the boundary edge is defined by the line between the course-side points of the stakes or fence posts at ground level

There is no way in which that statement could mean anything other than a straight line between the stakes. "Straight" added to it would be redundant. If you called me in to determine whether your ball was in or out of bounds and I needed to use string between the posts to decide, which would that Definition tell me to do?
a. Lay the string loosely out on the ground such that it wandered its wiggly way from post to post and unfortunately for you just happened to curve round the ball on the course side of it.
b. Fasten the string to one post and round the other, pulling it tight and straight?

 

[rulie]

When defined by stakes or a fence, the boundary edge is defined by the line between the course-side points of the stakes or fence posts at ground level

There is no way in which that statement could mean anything other than a straight line between the stakes. "Straight" added to it would be redundant. If you called me in to determine whether your ball was in or out of bounds and I needed to use string between the posts to decide, which would that Definition tell me to do?
a. Lay the string loosely out on the ground such that it wandered its wiggly way from post to post and unfortunately for you just happened to curve round the ball on the course side of it.
b. Fasten the string to one post and round the other, pulling it tight and straight?

Or maybe the ball was clearly on the course side of the straight line between stakes, but the referee chose a curved line that meandered onto the course, which would show the ball as out of bounds.
The use of a straight line between two stakes or posts is obvious.

 

[phillarrow]

The Rules don't need to include "straight" for a line between two stakes. It is straight unless the Local Rules say otherwise.
The Rules do say "the line between the outside points of the stakes at ground level". Use of "the" indicates there is only one line. If the Rules wanted to say anything else, they would use "a line".

The pedant in me completely understands you and thinks you're right. The autistic side of me thinks that course boundaries are often not straight and that the rule is ambiguous without the inclusion of the word straight...and just wrong in that it allows poor course management to create situations like that in the OP's post.

On one point though I'm firmly with Orikoru - we're not playing on the PGA tour and for most of us, week in week out, it's just not important enough. If one of my PPs has put his ball there I'd have told him to play it. And yes, yes, I know I would be wrong, I just don't care because it's a hobby, not my job, and it doesn't really matter that much. ?

 

[rulie]

The pedant in me completely understands you and thinks you're right. The autistic side of me thinks that course boundaries are often not straight and that the rule is ambiguous without the inclusion of the word straight...and just wrong in that it allows poor course management to create situations like that in the OP's post.

On one point though I'm firmly with Orikoru - we're not playing on the PGA tour and for most of us, week in week out, it's just not important enough. If one of my PPs has put his ball there I'd have told him to play it. And yes, yes, I know I would be wrong, I just don't care because it's a hobby, not my job, and it doesn't really matter that much. ?

Do you consider it necessary to hole out on every hole in stroke play? (just checking on how many other Rules you don't use )
This is a Rules forum where the Rules of golf are discussed, not the "close enough rules". JMHO

 

[phillarrow]

Do you consider it necessary to hole out on every hole in stroke play? (just checking on how many other Rules you don't use )
This is a Rules forum where the Rules of golf are discussed, not the "close enough rules". JMHO

Yeah fair enough. I don't usually look in this section to be honest... and this thread has shown me why! ?

I'm keen to learn more about the basic rules but I doubt I'll ever agree with the way they are applied. I think I'll just stick to doing whatever my PPs say is right! ?

 

[Jason.H]

It’s a straight line between the stakes. Doesn’t matter that they are far apart. If I’m out of bounds I take a penalty.

 

[Jason.H]

Just to add I played at Matlock gc the other week and due to slow play joined 2 young guys. On the 17th I think one hit/sliced 3 balls into the adjacent farmers field then took 3 clubs climbed over the wall and played from there. He finished the hole and said he parred it to his mate.

 

[Colin L]

The pedant in me completely understands you and thinks you're right. The autistic side of me thinks that course boundaries are often not straight and that the rule is ambiguous without the inclusion of the word straight...and just wrong in that it allows poor course management to create situations like that in the OP's post.

On one point though I'm firmly with Orikoru - we're not playing on the PGA tour and for most of us, week in week out, it's just not important enough. If one of my PPs has put his ball there I'd have told him to play it. And yes, yes, I know I would be wrong, I just don't care because it's a hobby, not my job, and it doesn't really matter that much. ?

I think there's maybe a misunderstanding here. A boundary line marked by stakes cannot be curved. The overall trend of it may well be curved but the actual boundary will be a series of lines from post to post, each one at a different angle to the previous one.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Yeah fair enough. I don't usually look in this section to be honest... and this thread has shown me why! ?

I'm keen to learn more about the basic rules but I doubt I'll ever agree with the way they are applied. I think I'll just stick to doing whatever my PPs say is right! ?

I would suggest that you don’t enter many comps then because it doesn’t matter if you agree about how they applied you still must follow them - and there will be no doubt times when PP’s aren’t right

One of the best things about golf is the ability to self Police and uphold the integrity of the sport and rules when you play - especially when playing in comps where your actions will have an impact on the whole field - you may not want to treat it seriously because it’s only a hobby but that doesn’t mean all feel the same.

 

[Foxholer]

I think there's maybe a misunderstanding here. A boundary line marked by stakes cannot be curved. The overall trend of it may well be curved but the actual boundary will be a series of lines from post to post, each one at a different angle to the previous one.

I agee. My only issue is the lack of clarity about in the Rule. It would even be worth another, or amended picture imo. It's unusual to have such easily eliminated, possible textual ambiguity in The Rules.

 

[rulie]

I agee. My only issue is the lack of clarity about in the Rule. It would even be worth another, or amended picture imo. It's unusual to have such easily eliminated, possible textual ambiguity in The Rules.

I'm quite sure that 99.95% of those playing understand that the line between two stakes is a straight line!

 

[backwoodsman]

Cheers. I still think it would be better if the Rules of golf included the word "straight" but hey ho.

Lines are straight, curves aren't.

 

[Foxholer]

I'm quite sure that 99.95% of those playing understand that the line between two stakes is a straight line!

So that's about 2600 in UK alone!
Irrespective of the numbers, 1 word to eliminate doubt is worthwhile imo! It's a copout to keep defending it imo!

 

[Swango1980]

So that's about 2600 in UK alone!
Irrespective of the numbers, 1 word to eliminate doubt is worthwhile imo! It's a copout to keep defending it imo!

I'm really unsure why it needs defended? If there was any thought that the line could be anything other than straight, then there would be an infinite number of lines that could be drawn between 2 points. They could be drawn 10 miles away from the course so the ball is always in bounds. They could be drawn to cross over Austrailia and back again.

It is obvious that the only definitive line that can be drawn between 2 points is a straight line. The rules generally spoon feed us pretty well so everything is generally black and white. It amazes me that this rule needs even more soon feeding for some.