How to use the wrists in the golfswing.

[JustOne]

Sorry JO. Wrist cocking alone cannot explain how (in Donald's vid) he gets from the position at 0:12 to impact at 0:13 and follow through at 0:14 and later. Look at how the 'V' (or 'Y') changes.

And I think you agreed that Bubba 'rolls'. I don't care why!

Bubba rolls when hit's his big hook but only in relation to holding onto the club, nothing to do with the swing... if the club is swinging away from you at 130mph you have to pull it round else your arms extend until they pop out of their sockets! :mmm:,.... any 'appearance' of rolling occurs when the shoulders have turned to their full extent and then stop (as they can't possibly turn any more).

here's Luke.... funny how the guy says "old school" and "recocking"... that's just plain weird!!!

2min 40 sec - 3 min 50 secs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O7gDTVCygo

 

[SocketRocket]

Sorry JO. Wrist cocking alone cannot explain how (in Donald's vid) he gets from the position at 0:12 to impact at 0:13 and follow through at 0:14 and later. Look at how the 'V' (or 'Y') changes.

And I think you agreed that Bubba 'rolls'. I don't care why!

For what it's worth you are wrong with both golfers. Take it or leave it.

 

[JustOne]

The bit (and pics) about Ernie at End of Follow Through and Finish Swivel action clearly shows the supination/pronation as posted (the V/Y change). I agree about Nicklaus (old-style) btw.

Ernie.....

Note that Ernie's hands are neutrally aligned relative to the clubshaft and that the clubshaft is aligned along a line that passes between the two arms towards the navel - suggesting that Ernie Els has rotated his mid-torso sufficiently through the impact zone to keep the clubshaft in front of his body. Note that the clubface appears slightly closed to the ball-target line, but relatively neutral relative to the clubhead swingpath arc. This proves that Els doesn't attempt to manipulate the club with his hands when hitting through the impact zone. Many beginner golfers attempt to actively manipulate the golf club during the downswing - hoping to square the clubface with active hand manipulations. Professional golfers are wiser, and they know that they cannot possibly manipulate the clubface at the last minute with their hands when the clubhead is travelling at 100mph through the impact zone, and they know that the primary function of the hands is to passively, but firmly, hold onto the club as the clubhead passes through the impact zone!

Ernie's swivel action is the result of his body stopping turning and the CHOSEN plane that he wants to have the shaft on (Luke Donald's CHOSEN shaft plane is a lot steeper as he recocks his wrists so the club doesn't 'lay left' as Ernie's does), he's not trying to hit the ball by rolling his wrists whatsoever.

 

[Foxholer]

Ernie's swivel action is the result of his body stopping turning and the CHOSEN plane that he wants to have the shaft on (Luke Donald's CHOSEN shaft plane is a lot steeper as he recocks his wrists so the club doesn't 'lay left' as Ernie's does), he's not trying to hit the ball by rolling his wrists whatsoever.

I've never stated that anybody tries to hit the ball by rolling the wrists. I merely think SR's post stating that ...rolling wrists ... is a no go was akin to stating that you should keep your head still during the swing.

Luke still moves one wrist around/over the other - as well as having a wrist cock - after impact. Rather less than Ernie (did) or Bubba does. Again, I'm not interested in why, merely that it happens.

SR. You still haven't answered my 2 questions.

 

[kid2]

*Deleted*

 

[JustOne]

I've never stated that anybody tries to hit the ball by rolling the wrists. I merely think SR's post stating that ...rolling wrists ... is a no go was akin to stating that you should keep your head still during the swing.

Luke still moves one wrist around/over the other - as well as having a wrist cock - after impact. Rather less than Ernie (did) or Bubba does. Again, I'm not interested in why, merely that it happens.

It's hard to explain but you don't use your wrists.. it's a bit like dropping a ball on the ground.. it WILL bounce..... you don't have to manipulate that with your wrists by trying to spin the ball in some way. Likewise in your swing you don't need to roll your wrists (or manipulate your clubhead) at all.... UNLESS you want to (like Ernie does AFTER he's hit the ball)... or HAVE to (eg: club moving away from you, or you rolled the thing open during your backswing!!)

....but either way anything that does happen (should it happen) does so loooong after the ball has left the clubface so you wouldn't be trying to manipulate the clubface whatsoever though the hitting area.


NB: You could even take rolling out of the equation altogether and start talking about 'flipping' which would be unhinging the wrists... which is ALSO something you shouldn't do.... I bet we can't even agree on that!!!!

 

[Foxholer]

....but either way anything that does happen (should it happen) does so loooong after the ball has left the clubface so you wouldn't be trying to manipulate the clubface whatsoever though the hitting area.


NB: You could even take rolling out of the equation altogether and start talking about 'flipping' which would be unhinging the wrists... which is ALSO something you shouldn't do.... I bet we can't even agree on that!!!!

Happy to agree that 'flipping' as we both understand it is (extremely) undesirable.

I assume, from the post I quote, that you don't consider that 'rolling of wrist' some time after impact a 'No Go'. Merely a 'who cares, there are more important things to worry about' ne:.

And STILL yet to receive the yes/no answers to the 2 questions I posed SR!

 

[JustOne]

I assume, from the post I quote, that you don't consider that 'rolling of wrist' some time after impact a 'No Go'. Merely a 'who cares, there are more important things to worry about' ne:.

hmmmm...... you're testing my small yet perfectly formed brain!

If we're talking about exact wording... then it probably doesn't matter if you let go of the club after you've hit the ball, you wouldn't really play for that though. I'd say rolling the wrists IS a no no for an ideal swing... it's something that does happen, not for everyone, and isn't really something you should play for. It's an effect of a BAD or CONTRIVED motion rather than the reason for it.

To look at it objectively you need to look at what rolling the wrist actually DOES, not what it doesn't do, and what the causes are so you can either a) fix them b) live with them, it's NOT something you would teach.

If your upper body (hips and up) stop turning then your arms WILL take over and the wrists/forearms HAVE TO ROLL, if this happens AFTER you've hit the ball then you've been lucky and might well play a good shot... if it happens before (as with so many people that hook the ball) then you're dead in the water which is why we tell people that hook to make sure they are turning their hips through to a 'good finish'... in an effort to STOP the wrists rolling and shutting the face.

Faders generally have the opposite problem where they can literally 'anti-roll' their wrists and chicken wing their arms .... but again this is an effort on their behalf to hit the ball with their swing FAULTS.. they're not actually addressing the fault by chicken winging their elbow.... again, not something you would teach.

Is it a no no?
Yes.

Does it matter if you DO roll the wrists AFTER you've hit the ball?
Not really.

 

[SocketRocket]

And STILL yet to receive the yes/no answers to the 2 questions I posed SR!

Iv,e been up the pub, sorry but that took priority over wrists in the golf swing.

I don't want to answer on a YES/NO basis. I have already told you a number of times that Luke and Bubba don't roll their wrists, they hinge them up and down. We will take that as a 'NO' then

With regard to handicap golfers: My point was that you mentioned some tour players and said they they could roll their wrists and still hit the ball well. My point was that we are not talking to Tour Players here, we are giving advice to the average club player and it is not a good idea for them to use any wrist roll in their golf swings. We will also take that as a 'NO'

I hope that satisfies your questions. I somehow doubt it though.

 

[JustOne]

Iv,e been up the pub, sorry but that took priority over wrists in the golf swing.

You clearly need to rethink your priorities mate!!! :ears:

:whoo::whoo::whoo:

 

[Foxholer]

Is it a no no?
Yes.

Does it matter.....?
Not really.

Now there REALLY IS a self contradiction!

BTW. How would 'teach' someone to (sling) hook the ball? It's a shot that's often required on one hole at my course! Would you still consider the rolling of one wrist over the other a No No?

 

[SocketRocket]

Now there REALLY IS a self contradiction!

BTW. How would 'teach' someone to (sling) hook the ball? It's a shot that's often required on one hole at my course! Would you still consider the rolling of one wrist over the other a No No?

Sounds like you don't know how to hit a hook shot. You don't turn the wrists over, that is a myth that has been put out for years by people that didn't understand the way golf balls react to impact. Its the difference between clubface direction and swingpath that will apply sidespin. Nothing else.

How can it be possible to influence ball direction by rotation the hands, the ball is only in contact with the clubface tor 6 millseconds, you must have very quick wrists.

 

[sawtooth]

Excessive wrist roll may (is likely to) be a fault, but there are plenty of top Pros who have an open or shut club-face that has to have involved some 'wrist roll'. The certainly compensate for it, so to say, as SR did, that ANY WRIST ROLL IS A NO GO is a daft statement imo - ranking with keeping your head still during the swing!

Here's the sort of swing you could get to if you are obsessed with not rolling one wrist over the other - from about 1.45.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVFuPKilfLw

Wrists do not roll they cock/uncock in a golf swing.

 

[JustOne]

Excessive wrist roll may (is likely to) be a fault, but there are plenty of top Pros who have an open or shut club-face that has to have involved some 'wrist roll'. The certainly compensate for it, so to say, as SR did, that ANY WRIST ROLL IS A NO GO is a daft statement imo - ranking with keeping your head still during the swing!

For the sake of 'wordology' and semantics I agree to an extent.... to say you can't do it is wrong, to say you shouldn't do it would be more correct. Ideally you shouldn't move your head.... but people do.

It would be wrong to teach someone to roll as it would be wrong to teach someone to wobble their head all over the place but if they can't hit it any other way then they have to do what they have to do, even though they shouldn't.

As I said previously the only summary that I can come up with is that in an ideal swing you wouldn't roll your wrists. As we know most of us choppers have far from ideal swings... the question is.....should we all pursue perfection?

NB: I wouldn't describe SR's reply as 'daft' particularly, just 'strict' and in relation to his original post.....

in another thread relating to my comment suggesting that the wrists should only hinge in an up and down manner during the swing and that rolling of the wrists caused problems for most golfers.

he would be correct.

 

[SGC001]

Don't know if it helps you lot or not, but Cochran and Stobbs identified 5 main movements in a 'model' backswing.

turn of the shoulders
raising the arm
cocking the wrists
arm swung slightly across the chest and
roll of the left forearm.

 

[SocketRocket]

Don't know if it helps you lot or not, but Cochran and Stobbs identified 5 main movements in a 'model' backswing.

turn of the shoulders
raising the arm
cocking the wrists
arm swung slightly across the chest and
roll of the left forearm.

It's a good book but was based much on what was going around in the 1960's

 

[JustOne]

Don't know if it helps you lot or not, but Cochran and Stobbs identified 5 main movements in a 'model' backswing.

Plummer and Bennett also have a model swing.....



:rofl::rofl:

 

[Foxholer]

How can it be possible to influence ball direction by rotation the hands, the ball is only in contact with the clubface tor 6 millseconds, you must have very quick wrists.

Another contradictory - or (deliberately?) misqualified statement?

Given that the perceived cause of an unwanted hook is very often the rolling of one wrist over the other, either that rotation does influence the direction (I'm certain it does because if done before impact it closes the face) or your entire argument about rolling one wrist over/around being a bad thing collapses.

I would have to assume that you are meaning ...rotating the hands during the 6 milliseconds (I'll take your word for it) that the club is in contact with the ball will have little influence on ball direction (or spin?).

Cochran and Stobbs may have published their work in 1968, but they got the 'ball flight laws' correct - something it took some folk approximately another 30years to agree with them.

And neither you (actually I didn't ask you) nor JO (who I did ask) have actually specified how you'd teach someone to (sling-)hook the ball - and what effect the changes from the 'normal' swing will have.

And perhaps to properly 'put this to bed', it's not that I would encourage 'wrist roll' on a normal shot - I would, in fact, (strongly) discourage it before impact. It's the 'on any shot is a no go' that is wrong imo. Qualification such as 'is fraught with danger' or 'is generally a bad thing' would be acceptable though!

 

[JustOne]

And neither you (actually I didn't ask you) nor JO (who I did ask) have actually specified how you'd teach someone to (sling-)hook the ball - and what effect the changes from the 'normal' swing will have.

I don't know what a sling hook is? I'm guessing it starts STRAIGHT(ish) and hooks left?

Clubface square at impact with a path that is in-to-out.

To get the path in-to-out enough to hook the ball you can do any (or all) of these things... ball back in stance, more weight on the left side, more shaft lean towards target, take the club more inside (rather than UP) on the backswing.

You don't need to roll your wrists to hit the hook as the clubface needs to be square (not closed) at impact for the shot I'm describing above.

I like to hit hooks that start a little to the right (an over-draw) so my clubface is open to the target at impact, again it has no wrist rolling else the clubface wouldn't be open. (I can probably move the ball 30yds right to left this way.... is that a sling?)

The thing that makes the ball hook is the relationship of the club face to the path. Once the ball has left the face (after 1/2000th of a second) it doesn't matter if you roll your wrists or chuck the club down the fairway.. it won't have any affect on the ball flight. Rolling them to TRY and get the hook is a waste of time, it does nothing to affect the ball flight whatsoever (only clubface/path/angle of attack are important).... but can seriously affect your ballflight should you for some reason roll it closed a fraction early (snap hook).

 

[Foxholer]

JO. I think we can pretty much agree (notice how that's qualified!).

My understanding of a Sling-hook is a controlled shot that moves a considerable right to left (rightee) compared to the distance it goes 'forward'. For a 120-140 from the target shot, I was thinking about that 30-40-ish.
Here's the obvious recent (extreme) one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jaq_SAtm3J8

Notice where his left wrist is at set-up compared right one and to shoulders (square at 39-40) and where it ends up in follow through (left above right and way past shoulders at 41). Wrists have 'rolled'. May not have rolled before impact, though I suspect that in Bubba's case they do!

And if you check out 'How to hook golf' in Google, in those that aren't aimed at curing it, I haven't found one that doesn't specify 'rolling wrists'. As usual, there's something in virtually every one that's a bit 'h'mm-ish'!

And it has occurred to me that your approach - of simply specifying the club-face & path requirement does not consider HOW this is done, so if achieved by 'rolling wrists' you'd be content. Of course, that's rather different from HOW BEST done!

And also having read SR's initial post inn this thread, his interpretation of what I stated in the V-Easy thread is wrong, so this entire thread has been created on a 'false premise'!
My disagreement is with anyone stating unqualified 'you mustn't's etc.

And here's an interesting article I came across in my searches...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1130032/index.htm