How to use the wrists in the golfswing.

[SocketRocket]

Foxholer made a comment in another thread relating to my comment suggesting that the wrists should only hinge in an up and down manner during the swing and that rolling of the wrists caused problems for most golfers.

Maybe Mr Foxholer would like to continue the thread and elaborate on how he believes the wrists should work.

 

[bobmac]

With your left hand, take hold of your right forearm a few inches above the hand and then try rolling your wrists without moving your arm......you cant do it.
But, I think when someone says 'roll your wrists' people know what they mean

 

[SocketRocket]

With your left hand, take hold of your right forearm a few inches above the hand and then try rolling your wrists without moving your arm......you cant do it.
But, I think when someone says 'roll your wrists' people know what they mean

I am talking about turning them over, I understand the forearms will also need to turn over to achieve this. My point is that turning the wrists over creates poor ball striking with most people as they need exceptional good timing to bring them back square.

 

[RGDave]

I'm interested in this; because over the years I have sometimes felt (right or wrong) that I'm rolling my wrists, certainly in "timing" through the ball.

I've not thought about it for a long time though, because ever since stopping manipulating the club on the take away (I used to deliberately open the face to 9 o'clock (toe directly up)) which then needed to then be closed at some point on the way down.

Always fascinated by this stuff.

 

[JustOne]

There's no rolling of the wrist..... in a decent swing..... until after the ball is struck and even then it's generally a recocking of the wrist (Luke Donald) or a rolling that avoids snapping the arms off (Bubba)

Luke recocks his wrists very quickly after impact, it's a technique (supposedly) to be able to hit the ball higher.... flippin' hard to do.

Bubba fiercy rolls his wrists post impact as the club is swinging so far OUT from him... he's literally just trying to hold onto the club and it appears to roll dramatically as he 'pulls' it round his body.

Neither of them is trying to manipulate the face INTO/THROUGH impact.

People who hit a draw appear to roll the face post impact (for the same reason Bubba appears to).. the club is going one way whilst the left shouder/arm is trying to go the other. One way round this is to swing more like Mahan who's hands stay lower and swing more LEFT, low hands are easier to control when hitting a draw. Someone like Ernie appears to roll the wrists... he's also a drawer of the ball, with hands higher than Mahan's at impact I believe.

If you're trying to literally hook the ball then you really have to get the path to the right of the face and then it seems even MORE like you're rolling your wrists.. they practically look like they cross over but this is all POST impact and as a RESULT of the swing... not a manipulation.

I think Foxy actually half said that in the other thread though didn't he?............ before contradicting himself....

Personally, I'd prefer it to be limited to 'after impact' (normally) or 'except where the shot demands it' (as in sling-hook), but to say it's a no-no seems ridiculous to me - specially where demonstrated by those examples.

 

[Foxholer]

From Previous Thread

I do believe that with any golf shot rotation of the wrists is a complete no go.

As per my assertion - and the 'test' is the one Bob cites above - The wrist can only (for all practicality) work in 2 planes. They cannot rotate!

So SR's post above, while anatomically correct, has no meaning - without the clarification as I requested (the definition of wrist rotation).

As for the concept of rolling one wrist over the other during a golf shot, It depends on your definition of 'shot'. If the shot finishes at impact, then maybe, but again a pointless statement. If it is 'whole swing', then clearly the McIlroy, Donald and Watson are swinging it wrongly.

Also, if at any point in the swing the clubface changes from being 'square' to otherwise, then there must have been some, albeit small, amount of 'rollover'. I'd guess that keeping that to only that desired (zero in SR's case) is what we can, just about, agree on.

Personally, I'm happy with 'reasonable' and 'not excessive' in most parts of a swing. It's the repeatability/predictability that is the most important in my view.

 

[chrisd]

My long time playing partner's first move away from the ball is to turn his hands to the extent that his right hand would be facing the sky. This then swings the club (for him) into a very laid off position at the top. It does work for him with woods and full iron shots but, he absolutely cant chip a ball as he never gets back to his set up position with any type of pitch or chip.

I have my hands forward at address with my irons and keep the bow that is created in my right wrist right throught the back swing to the strike, there is no deliberate move in the wrist, roll or anything, that doesn't just happen naturally during the backswing and the hands at strike are in the same position that they were at set up. For me, I now hit down on the ball compressing it, the ball flight is lower and stronger and with more spin and straighter with slight draw.

I do not subscribe to any theory of rolling the wrists or arms in the swing - just do what comes naturally.

 

[sawtooth]

Wrist roll is a fault especially in the first part of the backswing. Its common to accidentally roll the wrist when taking the club away which will result in a open/closed club face. I guess those that do it and still play well probably compensate for this in the downswing.

Wrist cock/uncock is something that IMO should just happen subconsciously as a result of gripping the club correctly. A good grip is designed to allow the wrists to cock/uncock well and to make it more difficult to roll them.

 

[JustOne]

As for the concept of rolling one wrist over the other during a golf shot, It depends on your definition of 'shot'. If the shot finishes at impact, then maybe, but again a pointless statement. If it is 'whole swing', then clearly the McIlroy, Donald and Watson are swinging it wrongly.

Depends what point of reference you take in the swing and where the rest of the body is positioned.

For example: If you take an 'old school' follow through where the toe of the club points at the sky on the throughswing when the shaft is parallel to the ground..... have the wrists had to roll to get to that position..... if the hips have opened and the shoulders are facing the target what roll has occured?

Yes the club would appear to have rolled when viewed from 'face on' but in reality it hasn't, it's just that you're now viewing the clubhead from a 'side-on' view... and it's raised from the ground.

 

[Foxholer]

Depends what point of reference you take in the swing and where the rest of the body is positioned.

For example: If you take an 'old school' follow through where the toe of the club points at the sky on the throughswing when the shaft is parallel to the ground..... have the wrists had to roll to get to that position..... if the hips have opened and the shoulders are facing the target what roll has occured?

Yes the club would appear to have rolled when viewed from 'face on' but in reality it hasn't, it's just that you're now viewing the clubhead from a 'side-on' view... and it's raised from the ground.

JO. Why quote my using Donald, McIlroy and Bubba as examples, then talk about 'old school' swings?

It seems to me that the swings that identify players as 'Cricketers' are the ones that seem to have the least rolling of one wrist over the other (after impact). Cricket bat grip is the epitomy of a strong left hand!

Wrist roll is a fault especially in the first part of the backswing. Its common to accidentally roll the wrist when taking the club away which will result in a open/closed club face. I guess those that do it and still play well probably compensate for this in the downswing.

Excessive wrist roll may (is likely to) be a fault, but there are plenty of top Pros who have an open or shut club-face that has to have involved some 'wrist roll'. The certainly compensate for it, so to say, as SR did, that ANY WRIST ROLL IS A NO GO is a daft statement imo - ranking with keeping your head still during the swing!

Here's the sort of swing you could get to if you are obsessed with not rolling one wrist over the other - from about 1.45.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVFuPKilfLw

 

[SocketRocket]

Just One is correct. A view from the front may appear that the clubface has rotated but in face in a good swing it has just rotated around the core and is still square to the swingpath.

Many poor swings are due to the clubface being rolled open in the backswing then returning to the ball with the face still open, it's why most golfers slice the ball. Keeping the wrists square eliminates the need for difficult manipulations.

If the wrists hinge and unhinge in an up and down manner only then you will be able to create power with repeated accuracy.

Golfers do rotate their wrists in the swing and destroy all chance of good ball striking unless they have very exceptional timing.

To suggest that the wrists cannot roll over or rotate is purely semantics, its like saying the spine does not lift up, it's the head. lets not go down that route please

Here is a good video that shows a drill to keep the wrists square to the swingplane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaZC6s4pev0&feature=relmfu

 

[andycap]

Use of the wrists in the swing is something that i have been working on recently, there are some good videos on youtube . One that has helped me describes getting the club at right angles to your left arm when your arm is parallel to the ground on the back swing ,(club pointing skywards) and getting a similar right angle when your arm is parallel to the ground on the follow through . If you just go through that motion without even holding a club you will see that quite a lot of wrist movement is required to achieve that . I have found it very good , although as with all aspects of the swing there are timing issues , at first i didnt swing any further than the 90 degrees but if you swing further just get in to that right angle position when the arm is parallel.
I find it works best with short irons and wedges , giving me a nice lofted flight that stops quickly . I'd like to know what the experts view on it is though .

 

[SocketRocket]

Use of the wrists in the swing is something that i have been working on recently, there are some good videos on youtube . One that has helped me describes getting the club at right angles to your left arm when your arm is parallel to the ground on the back swing ,(club pointing skywards) and getting a similar right angle when your arm is parallel to the ground on the follow through . If you just go through that motion without even holding a club you will see that quite a lot of wrist movement is required to achieve that . I have found it very good , although as with all aspects of the swing there are timing issues , at first i didnt swing any further than the 90 degrees but if you swing further just get in to that right angle position when the arm is parallel.
I find it works best with short irons and wedges , giving me a nice lofted flight that stops quickly . I'd like to know what the experts view on it is though .

Yes, that's a good way to play. The only wrists movement required is to hinge the wrist up and down though. The impact zone between the halfway back position to the halfway through is the crutial part of the swing to get right. If you can get the club correctly into the half way down position then 'not a lot' can go wrong from there.

 

[SocketRocket]

Excessive wrist roll may (is likely to) be a fault, but there are plenty of top Pros who have an open or shut club-face that has to have involved some 'wrist roll'. The certainly compensate for it, so to say, as SR did, that ANY WRIST ROLL IS A NO GO is a daft statement imo - ranking with keeping your head still during the swing!

Daft!! We are addressing handicap golfers here, not giving advice to the best players in the world that have exeptional timing and coordination. Rolling the wrists for the average player is as I stated, a No Go.

Maybe you could try a little harder to debate a subject without having to use statements like 'is a daft statement imo - ranking with keeping your head still during the swing! ' If you believe the statement to be wrong then be polite enough to explain why without the personal digs.

 

[Foxholer]

Golfers do rotate their wrists in the swing

We've already established that that (rotating wrists) is physically (virtually) impossible. Not at all like spine/head lifting - both of which are possible. It's the forearms that do the 'rolling' - pronation/supination - that changes the relative position of the wrists - from almost square to one above the other.

Surely you agree that Donald's, McIlroy's and Bubba's wrists (forearms!) 'roll' after the ball has been hit.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://dpxmag.com/Packages/backups/rory-mcilroy-golf-grips-i0.jpg&imgrefurl=http://dpxmag.com/Packages/backups/rory-mcilroy-golf-grips&h=336&w=629&sz=21&tbnid=ZNp0xNN_wuwAjM:&tbnh=64&tbnw=120&zoom=1&usg=__6TGVXVgf8BRPqDfWQbzqEqr69A4=&docid=5oWcpHTR-Lr3SM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RpryT5P9JejZ0QXWn5WwCQ&sqi=2&ved=0CFEQ9QEwAw&dur=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVW8DBHWXv8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1kvH1SDn3I

 

[SocketRocket]

We've already established that that (rotating wrists) is physically (virtually) impossible. Not at all like spine/head lifting - both of which are possible. It's the forearms that do the 'rolling' - pronation/supination - that changes the relative position of the wrists - from almost square to one above the other.

Surely you agree that Donald's, McIlroy's and Bubba's wrists (forearms!) 'roll' after the ball has been hit.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://dpxmag.com/Packages/backups/rory-mcilroy-golf-grips-i0.jpg&imgrefurl=http://dpxmag.com/Packages/backups/rory-mcilroy-golf-grips&h=336&w=629&sz=21&tbnid=ZNp0xNN_wuwAjM:&tbnh=64&tbnw=120&zoom=1&usg=__6TGVXVgf8BRPqDfWQbzqEqr69A4=&docid=5oWcpHTR-Lr3SM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RpryT5P9JejZ0QXWn5WwCQ&sqi=2&ved=0CFEQ9QEwAw&dur=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVW8DBHWXv8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1kvH1SDn3I

I don't want to get into semantic discussions on whether the wrists or forarms do the rolling. You know exactly what was meant.

Luke and Bubba do not roll their wrists (Forearms if it makes you happy) after impact. They continue to keep the club on plane and hinge their wrists upwards, If they rolled the club would be pointing to the side of them and not over their shoulder. I think you may be getting confused with the way their wrists hinge. You also seem to contradict yourself with the head lifting comment, it's the spine that lifts, the head is just attached to it. Just like the forearms and wrists.

 

[Foxholer]

Daft!! We are addressing handicap golfers here, not giving advice to the best players in the world that have exeptional timing and coordination. Rolling the wrists for the average player is as I stated, a No Go.

Maybe you could try a little harder to debate a subject without having to use statements like 'is a daft statement imo - ranking with keeping your head still during the swing! ' If you believe the statement to be wrong then be polite enough to explain why without the personal digs.

There's nothing personal about it from my point of view. My opinion of the daftness or otherwise of the statement has no bearing on whether or not I think you are daft or not - I don't btw. And the 'it's daft...' statement had the 'imo' disclaimer, so you can take or leave my opinion as you see fit - I'm not bothered either way.

However, please answer the following 2 questions with simple yes/no answers.

Did your original post (in the V-Easy thread and quoted by me some posts back) mention anything about ;'handicap golfers'?

Do McIlroy, Donald and Bubba - in the links in my post above - 'roll their wrists' after impact.

 

[JustOne]

Surely you agree that Donald's, McIlroy's and Bubba's wrists (forearms!) 'roll' after the ball has been hit.

I don't agree.

In the 2 video examples their wrists are recocking, not rolling.

 

[JustOne]

I'd take most of what this guy [below] writes as verbatim... so here's one small paragraph...

Note that Aaron Baddeley does not actively manipulate his wrists/hands through the impact zone by flipping his hands at the ball. Not only is there no evidence of "flipping" of the hands, there is also no evidence of any other hand or wrist manipulations eg. rolling the wrists over (right hand rolling over the left hand) or any deliberate "holding the clubface open" type of hand manipulation. Many beginner golfers mistakenly believe that active hand movements are required to square the clubface at impact, but that belief is incorrect, and the clubface becomes square to the ball at impact as a result of perfectly synchronised body/arm movements.

Actually one more line...

In other words, it is critically important that a beginner golfer understand that perfect total body positioning squares the clubface at impact, and not any last-minute, active hand manipulations. The hands merely hold onto the club's grip while the golfer ensures that his body adopts a perfect impact position

The rest is here...
http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/impact.htm

 

[Foxholer]

I don't agree.

In the 2 video examples their wrists are recocking, not rolling.

Sorry JO. Wrist cocking alone cannot explain how (in Donald's vid) he gets from the position at 0:12 to impact at 0:13 and follow through at 0:14 and later. Look at how the 'V' (or 'Y') changes.

And I think you agreed that Bubba 'rolls'. I don't care why!

The bit (and pics) about Ernie at End of Follow Through and Finish Swivel action clearly shows the supination/pronation as posted (the V/Y change). I agree about Nicklaus (old-style) btw.