How should the winner be decided if scores are tied?

[rosecott]

The answer is obvious. The 19.2 is 0.1 better. If they were 19.5 snd 18.4, the 0.1 makes a difference. Playing handicaps make it simple but introduce distortions. If a 19.4 and a 18.5 have the same score, but the 18.5 wins on an arbitrary count back, is that still fair? Is a coin toss fairer?

No, it is not obvious. The system says quite clearly that there is no distinction between 2 players with the same playing handicap. Is a player who has gone up to 19.2 with several 0.1 increases a better player than a 19.3 who has reached there with a good score and an ESR?

 

[HampshireHog]

The fairest merit-based way of settling is with precise handicap including the decimal place.

I don’t get why its fairer. Why does having a x.9 handicap means you only have to shoot the same as the next best competitor (net) to win, but a y.0 handicapper has beat the rest of the field.

The system still doesn’t deal with a situation where the exact net is the same. So where do you go from there? Countback?

 

[doublebogey7]

I don't get where you've gone with that.
My example is simple, two 19 handicappers score 89,one scores net 69.7 and the other scores net 69.8, effectively meaning the guy off 19.3 has a one shot advantage before they tee off.
The rounding up at .5 is a different issue really.

They are not both 19 handicapped though are they, one is a 19.3 and the other 19.2. It is the founding that gives them 19 shots.

 

[doublebogey7]

I don’t get why its fairer. Why does having a x.9 handicap means you only have to shoot the same as the next best competitor (net) to win, but a y.0 handicapper has beat the rest of the field.

The system still doesn’t deal with a situation where the exact net is the same. So where do you go from there? Countback?

And neither does count back when that fail to split a tie, then where do you go.

 

[rulefan]

No one plays and declares an Exact Handicap. Competitions are not interested in Exact Handicaps. The only thing that matters is the Playing Handicap.
I wonder why it has that name? Perhaps 'Playing' is a clue.
How is a match result determined if it is all square after the 18 and one player's Exact is 19.7 and the other's is 19.8?

 

[HampshireHog]

And neither does count back when that fail to split a tie, then where do you go.

Countback provides multiple iterations in the event of a tie. Whilst it is possible for 2 competitors to score the same on every hole it is statistically improbable. Call it a draw at that point ?

Same 2 players with same decimal point score 10% chance.

 

[Ethan]

I don’t get why its fairer. Why does having a x.9 handicap means you only have to shoot the same as the next best competitor (net) to win, but a y.0 handicapper has beat the rest of the field.

The system still doesn’t deal with a situation where the exact net is the same. So where do you go from there? Countback?

Countback is just an arbitrary way of splitting a tie. You could just easily decide based on birthday or pick a number. The fact is that precise handicap is important. That 0.1 might make a whole stroke difference if it moves you to X.5, yet it must be avoided like the plague if it is X.4 or X.6. That makes no sense.

 

[Ethan]

Actually, after further thought I disagree with the muppet that wrote that. (That's me for the record ?)
You can't use exact handicaps for the very reason I put earlier, ie the tiny 0.1 difference actually gives you a whole shot advantage /disadvantage.

Under the current system, you and I have the same net score, I am off 10.4, you off 9.5. You beat me by 0.9 shots (i.e. damn near a whole shot) but I win because I had a worse front 9 (i.e. a better back 9). How is that fairer?

 

[doublebogey7]

If you're therefore suggesting that rounding is abolished, it works.

That is exactly what Ethan and I have been suggesting for stroke play events. For Match Play I would stick with the play off.

 

[doublebogey7]

No one plays and declares an Exact Handicap. Competitions are not interested in Exact Handicaps. The only thing that matters is the Playing Handicap.
I wonder why it has that name? Perhaps 'Playing' is a clue.
How is a match result determined if it is all square after the 18 and one player's Exact is 19.7 and the other's is 19.8?

Don't think anyone is suggesting exact handicaps for match play, as play offs work fine.
As for the first part of your reply, sounds like the classic "cause that's the way it's always been" so beloved in golf club circles.

 

[Ethan]

How did I beat you by 0.9 shots?? I really don't get what you're saying, we both are off 10 so obviously we both had the same gross.

As for Countback, I've already said there's no logic in it.

Oops, I had the numbers the wrong way round. I won off 9.5 over your 10.4. Applying exact handicap, you would have won. Exact handicap is simply a way of applying a more precise measure to separate two tied players. Better than a toss of the coin, which is what countback is, agreeing with you on the lack of logic.

That 0.1 often makes a whole shot difference, every time someone goes from X.4 to X.5.

 

[HampshireHog]

Countback is just an arbitrary way of splitting a tie. You could just easily decide based on birthday or pick a number. The fact is that precise handicap is important. That 0.1 might make a whole stroke difference if it moves you to X.5, yet it must be avoided like the plague if it is X.4 or X.6. That makes no sense.

I agree it is arbitrary, but it doesn’t disadvantage players from the outset. Still not sure where you go in the 10% likelihood the exact net is the same.

The fact is most statistical tie breaks are arbitrary. Why are goals scored used in football leagues but head to head encounters in other competitions.

 

[Ethan]

I agree it is arbitrary, but it doesn’t disadvantage players from the outset. Still not sure where you go in the 10% likelihood the exact net is the same.

The fact is most statistical tie breaks are arbitrary. Why are goals scored used in football leagues but head to head encounters in other competitions.

Well in football, goal difference is kinda like exact handicap, tunnelling down into the score a bit more. Goals scored is arbitrary, simply the opposite of goals conceded. For the 10% of exact scores tying, then coin toss it'll be.

 

[doublebogey7]

I agree it is arbitrary, but it doesn’t disadvantage players from the outset. Still not sure where you go in the 10% likelihood the exact net is the same.

The fact is most statistical tie breaks are arbitrary. Why are goals scored used in football leagues but head to head encounters in other competitions.

All handicap golf then disadvantages from the outset. Exact handicap is far less arbitrary then countback.

 

[rosecott]

Don't think anyone is suggesting exact handicaps for match play, as play offs work fine.
As for the first part of your reply, sounds like the classic "cause that's the way it's always been" so beloved in golf club circles.

Rather "that's how it evolved from years of experience".

 

[doublebogey7]

No it's not.
It is giving someone who is a mere 0.1 higher than his fellow competitor a whole shot advantage before they've teed off.
It's therefore hugely less precise.

So a player with an exact of 10.4 should play off the same handicap as one with an exact of 10.5 then, yes?

 

[Ethan]

No it's not.
It is giving someone who is a mere 0.1 higher than his fellow competitor a whole shot advantage before they've teed off.
It's therefore hugely less precise.

I don't think you understand statistics. It doesn't give a shot advantage, it gives 0.1 shot advantage in the event of a tie. X.5 is only 0.1 higher than X.4, yet gives a whole shot advantage. Why is X.6 or x.7 different? The handicap is simply a way of balancing players of different abilities. You approve of that, but only to a certain degree?

 

[doublebogey7]

Rather "that's how it evolved from years of experience".

Not sure that is what Rulefan was demonstrating.

 

[HampshireHog]

I don't think you understand statistics. It doesn't give a shot advantage, it gives 0.1 shot advantage in the event of a tie. X.5 is only 0.1 higher than X.4, yet gives a whole shot advantage. Why is X.6 or x.7 different? The handicap is simply a way of balancing players of different abilities. You approve of that, but only to a certain degree?

Just wondering how this method works with Stableford.

 

[Backsticks]

No, obviously not.
Because as you well know, the civilised world has a very well established way of rounding numbers up and down.
There are 10 exact handicaps within each playing handicap, obviously there has to be a cut off point somewhere.

His point is valid though. If 0.1 can make a stroke difference to a handicap, as it must as you say, then why not also use it to break ties, where the use of the extra precision is surely better than the back nine etc methods which is just random way to get a winner and no better than tossing a coin.