How fair is the handicap system

[User20204]

I play in all club comps I can and another fella I know only play in seniors as he's a 5 day member. We are off very similar hcaps yet he only plays off of the melons and probably doesn't play more than 10-15 Q's a season.

I on the other hand rarely play off the yellas and have already played 28 Qs.

So how does that make the system correct as I'm playing far more and generally harder courses.

 

[fundy]

what are the SSS for the two sets of tees?

what do you propose, should you stop playing qualifying comps until hes caught up your 28?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

The difference in palying off whites and yellows should be taken into account. I only play off yellows at my place and to be cut I need to score much better, higher or lower depedning on the scoring system, than if I played off the whites. In effect, the same score off the whites may get me a cut, off the yellows I may go up 0.1. I scored 35 points in a stableford off the yellows this season and went up 0.1 .

The answer to your question is that he is a similar standard to you, the h/c reflects that. If he only played 3 comps a year then they may not but 10-15 a year gives him an honest h/c. Playing more doesn't make you better than him.

You are going to get some more brutal answers I suspect but this is the gist of it.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

I play in all club comps I can and another fella I know only play in seniors as he's a 5 day member. We are off very similar hcaps yet he only plays off of the melons and probably doesn't play more than 10-15 Q's a season.

I on the other hand rarely play off the yellas and have already played 28 Qs.

So how does that make the system correct as I'm playing far more and generally harder courses.

Different tee's means a different css. Often harder to get cut playing off yellows as the css can be much lower.

Harder course whatever that means will have a higher css so no difference in my opinion.

 

[User20204]

Im not looking for sympathy though I generally play on much harder courses with out whites being 600+ yards longer.

He has openly told me the whites is far to difficult for him and would play off possibly 4 shots more, his words not mine.

 

[fundy]

Im not looking for sympathy though I generally play on much harder courses with out whites being 600+ yards longer.

He has openly told me the whites is far to difficult for him and would play off possibly 4 shots more, his words not mine.

the question still remains, what are the SSS of the 2 different sets of tees?

 

[Grant85]

I play in all club comps I can and another fella I know only play in seniors as he's a 5 day member. We are off very similar hcaps yet he only plays off of the melons and probably doesn't play more than 10-15 Q's a season.

I on the other hand rarely play off the yellas and have already played 28 Qs.

So how does that make the system correct as I'm playing far more and generally harder courses.

The SSS should give you an extra shot or two when playing off the back tees.

I wouldn't say 10-15 qualifiers is a problem - that's plenty of golf. The people who really manipulate it are those who get their 3 in and in all likelihood maintain a vanity handicap they can no longer play to.

However, it's fair to say the system is open to a bit of manipulation if you want to do that. i.e. play supplementaries off the yellows if you want to come down, and only on days with good conditions.
Avoid courses or conditions that don't suit your game - you'd find that a lot of handicappers in the mid-teens can knock it round a members course at or close to their handicap, but would have virtually no chance at a championship course set up for tournament conditions, even though they might be getting an extra 5 or 6 shots when you factor in the SSS.

Not much that can be done about your scenario, so I'd say just get on with it. If you are that bothered, put a few supplementary scores in off the yellows and get cut a shot or two.

 

[User20204]

Just to clarify, at no time am I suggesting there is handicap manipulation here. I play in a lot more due to being a 7 day member, he plays in a lot of club matches so isn't always available to play in senior comps.

The things is, we have a massive yardage difference between our white and lemons, not like a lot of clubs where it's only ten yards between tees, some of ours are 50/60/70 yard differences.

Again, I'm not after sympathy though even the chap I refer to thinks our hcaps are not comparable to each others game.

 

[fundy]

Just to clarify, at no time am I suggesting there is handicap manipulation here. I play in a lot more due to being a 7 day member, he plays in a lot of club matches so isn't always available to play in senior comps.

The things is, we have a massive yardage difference between our white and lemons, not like a lot of clubs where it's only ten yards between tees, some of ours are 50/60/70 yard differences.

Again, I'm not after sympathy though even the chap I refer to thinks our hcaps are not comparable to each others game.

and do the relative SSS reflect these yardage differences???? have played courses where the backs are 800 yards longer and the SSS is 4 or 5 shots higher

 

[User20204]

and do the relative SSS reflect these yardage differences???? have played courses where the backs are 800 yards longer and the SSS is 4 or 5 shots higher

2 shot difference in the SSS

 

[patricks148]

i would say in these circumstances in Match Play off the whites you are more likley to win

 

[duncan mackie]

Complete non issue - not every course is the same, and your difference in tees is nothing compared to the possibilities for players at other clubs and courses off a range of their tees.

So you are left with the reality that any player able to select the course and tees they use for their handicap cards will generally be able to get a lower handicap than one forced to play a particular course and tees...but that's life.

Not all 20 handicappers conform to the working performance factors assumed in the calculation of a bogey index - and right down to scr that applies (although variation tends to reduce a little). For the working proof just look a the PGA tour and how some courses suit some players strengths - even at that level.

WHS is designed to take such elements into account better than the previous rating/handicap approach but will still have the same fundamental weakness...anyone playing any course and tees that better suits their capabilities than the one they regularily play will have an edge (over and above home advantage factors)

 

[jim8flog]

To me that's a bit like saying are men's handicaps fair against ladies handicaps.

The difference is mainly taken up by the difference in the SSS/CSS and the difference in length between the two tees should reflect the difference in ability.

I play a good mix of Yellow tee comps and white tee comps.

The yellows are all seniors comps and a lot of the white comps are seniors comps. What I notice more than anything is that I have the best chance of being in the prizes is when I play amongst my peers ie the seniors, whether it is off whites or yellows. I also notice whether it is medal or stableford also makes a big difference.

 

[clubchamp98]

I play of both white and yellow tees but I am the opposite I find the yellow tees bring more trouble off the tee for me.
Off the longer 600+ yd’s whites I can’t reach most of the trouble.
All it does off longer course imo is give you longer/ more difficult second shots but the winning scores are higher by two shots.

 

[williamalex1]

We can choose to play either Yellow or White tees in our Tuesday medals [ same comp ] both Tees have their own separate SSS and CSS.
White tees markers are approx 400 yards longer according to the score card but that can be a good bit more if the whites tees are pushed right to the back.White par 71 SS 70, Yellow par 69 SS 68.
I think ??? the guys playing from the whites basically get 2 strokes added to their h/c for competition purposes.
The Experts will be along shortly to explain properly

 

[clubchamp98]

When the WHS comes in will we use the slope system like the USA.

 

[Parsaregood]

Just to clarify, at no time am I suggesting there is handicap manipulation here. I play in a lot more due to being a 7 day member, he plays in a lot of club matches so isn't always available to play in senior comps.

The things is, we have a massive yardage difference between our white and lemons, not like a lot of clubs where it's only ten yards between tees, some of ours are 50/60/70 yard differences.

Again, I'm not after sympathy though even the chap I refer to thinks our hcaps are not comparable to each others game.

It's really a pointless argument IMO. Why can he not score off the whites ? Presumably he now lacks the distance he once had but my guess would be if you played off the yellows you would score very similarly to him and therefore his handicap would be correct for the courses and conditions he plays most of the time. Questions I'd be asking myself if I were you is how can a guy who is presumably alot shorter than me still score the same ? It seems you have an insecurity on your part because you feel because you can still somewhat score round a longer course and he cant that you are a better player when that is not the case clearly.

 

[rulefan]

When the WHS comes in will we use the slope system like the USA.

Yes. All courses have been rated or are now being rated in readiness

 

[rulefan]

the guys playing from the whites basically get 2 strokes added to their h/c for competition purposes.
The Experts will be along shortly to explain properly

In effect yes. The target is the SSS (not par). The scratch player is expected to play the whites in 71 and the yellows in 69. This not just about length but also about difficulties encountered on the course (eg penalty areas).

 

[Tashyboy]

If you are playing off the yellows are you a senior. 👍 Just read the last few posts so now I know. In essence I am 56. I struggled off the white tees. They are 600 yards further. Our SI 1 is 580 yds. It is 175 carry to the fairway. Left or rights it's dead. I made a decision to move to the yellows a couple of weeks ago. I was a senior playing off the white tees. Who was I giving an advantage to every time I played. I have gone down from 19.4 to 18.0 in three comps. More importantly though, I am enjoying my golf. I too play with three others over 55, I am the youngest. They choose to play off the whites. I get to the clubhouse and listen to players complain re not scoring and yet they could move to yellows. Yet to see a club that has been released that will give you 600 yards extra distance over 18 holes. They are happy with there decision to play off yellows, are you happy playing off whites. If so everyone is happy. 👍 If not, try it.