How can a par/bogey competition be a qualifier

[louise_a]

found out today that this type of comp was a qualifier and I can work out why.

My reasoning is a follows, take a 18 handicapper, they get a shot a hole, so if they have 4 net birdies and 4 net bogies and 10 net pars, they would finish up with score of 0 in a par comp, had it been a stableford they would have scored 36 points. Now if the same golfer had 4 net birdies and 4 net double bogies they would still have a par score of 0, but had it been a stableford they would have scored 32 points.

So how can you use a par comp for handicap, especially as once you can't half the hole you would pick up?

 

[virtuocity]

So how can you use a par comp for handicap, especially as once you can't half the hole you would pick up?

I think that's just it- you don't pick up until you've exceeded net double bogey, if I understand things correctly. Seems daft, doesn't it?

 

[Foxholer]

I think that's just it- you don't pick up until you've exceeded net double bogey, if I understand things correctly. Seems daft, doesn't it?

Nope! You can pick up as soon as you can't make nett Par!

I'm not altogether convinced about being a qualifier, but it's really not that much different from (not) having a Stableford Adjustment in the current system.

 

[Crow]

It's just one of those strange things.

What you say is absolutely right, you could score +3 in a bogey comp and yet score 33 points Stableford, so in one format you'd be three under handicap but in the other you'd be three over handicap for exactly the same card.
Or you could score -3 in a bogey comp and 39 points Stableford.

It's just the way it is. Many don't like bogey comps but I do as it means you can be more aggressive with those net par puts and don't have to worry about the one back for a Stableford point, although in my last bogey comp I was -7

 

[chrisd]

The rules of golf actually state that you don't need to record a score where a competitor has a nett score greater than par for the hole in a bogey comp. The comp is played under strokeplay rules and therefore is properly governed and the Congu book has a table to work out handicap adjustments and I assume that it's inbuilt into club computers as well

 

[louise_a]

Thanks for the comments, but I still don't get how it can be a qualifier.

During a recent medal at the club I had a net 76, par 72, CSS 72, but due to my erratic scoring this was adjusted to 72, I would have scored 36 points had it been a Stableford comp, so no handicap change.
However, if it had been a par comp I would have been +2 which according to the Congu tables would have been a net differential of -2 and so a cut of 0.6 would have been in order.

 

[Birchy]

Sounds like just another cop out way of getting handicap cuts.

Qualifying comps should be medal only, proper golf the way its supposed to be played imo.

 

[Region3]

 

[Hobbit]

On Saturday I shot +3 off 5, but the strokeplay score was 75 against a par of 72, CSS 72. Cut 0.3 to 5.0. Chuffed to bits with the cut. The holes I dropped shots on read bogey, double bogey, bogey, bogey - none were shot holes... and I haven't got a clue why the cut was 0.3.

 

[louise_a]

On Saturday I shot +3 off 5, but the strokeplay score was 75 against a par of 72, CSS 72. Cut 0.3 to 5.0. Chuffed to bits with the cut. The holes I dropped shots on read bogey, double bogey, bogey, bogey - none were shot holes... and I haven't got a clue why the cut was 0.3.

If par=CSS then +3 is equal to a net differential of-3 so the 0.3 cut is correct based on the Congu tables.

 

[Foxholer]

Sounds like just another cop out way of getting handicap cuts.

Qualifying comps should be medal only, proper golf the way its supposed to be played imo.

So no Stablefords either?

 

[cookelad]

I agree I can't see how it can be a qualifier - played my first bogey comp a couple of weeks ago, went for everything thinking well it can't be a qualifier being "matchplay" and all, knocked in a couple of good birdies but made more bogeys and got to the stage in my mind where I'd lost 4&3 - needless to say by the time I reached the 18th I was -7, because well what's the point in trying at that point!

I'd love to see the formula they use because it's gotta be really clever, in theory a golfer could be 9 under or over his/her handicap and walk off on 0 (zero) 9 nett eagles and 9 net bogeys.

 

[Foxholer]

I'd love to see the formula they use because it's gotta be really clever, in theory a golfer could be 9 under or over his/her handicap and walk off on 0 (zero) 9 nett eagles and 9 net bogeys.

http://www.englandgolf.org/e-brochure/index.html

Appendix D. Page 62

 

[cookelad]

http://www.englandgolf.org/e-brochure/index.html

Appendix D. Page 62

Not really a formula is it, just a table that says if CSS is 2 below par then you need to be +2 to play to your handicap

I'm not convinced that works - For example a player (18hcp for arguments sake) could walk off the 18th green with 38 stableford points but because he'd had 2 nett eagles 3 nett birdies and 5 nett single bogeys he's finished the bogey comp at 0, so assuming par=css on the course played he wouldn't get a cut.

 

[Foxholer]

Not really a formula is it, just a table that says if CSS is 2 below par then you need to be +2 to play to your handicap

I'm not convinced that works - For example a player (18hcp for arguments sake) could walk off the 18th green with 38 stableford points but because he'd had 2 nett eagles 3 nett birdies and 5 nett single bogeys he's finished the bogey comp at 0, so assuming par=css on the course played he wouldn't get a cut.

It's a table that converts Bogey Score to Nett Differential, which is what is used to calculate Handicap Adjustment.

Formula is ND = (BogScor - (CSS - Par)) * -1

Note there's a line for Stableford there too - formula for that is ND = (StabScor - 36 - (Par - CSS)) * -1

A negative ND means a cut; ND > Category = +0.1

I agree it's not as obvious as the usual calc and subject to a bit of varieation (I've been a 'victim' of Birdie-ing a shot hole and not getting the same reward as Stableford/Medal comps. statistically though, it's just as valid (overall), provided there are sufficient players.

 

[SocketRocket]

Are Bogy Comps not a form of Match Play? You against the course. In this respect it cant really be considered Stableford.

 

[duncan mackie]

So how can you use a par comp for handicap, especially as once you can't half the hole you would pick up?

foxy seems to be fighting a loosing battle, so I will join in

the argument you present is equally valid to stableford - at some point it makes no difference if you pick up or putt out.

but wait (as a famous advert that I can't remember what for says) there's more - even in medal competition you might as well pick up beyond the same point as a stableford comp from a handicap perspective, exactly the same.

put another way, you aren't handicapped to a medal result, only the underlying stableford - so what's wrong with applying the same to a par/bogey comp?

 

[rosecott]

I'm not convinced that works - For example a player (18hcp for arguments sake) could walk off the 18th green with 38 stableford points but because he'd had 2 nett eagles 3 nett birdies and 5 nett single bogeys he's finished the bogey comp at 0, so assuming par=css on the course played he wouldn't get a cut.

But he's not playing a stableford, he stood on the first tee knowing he was playing in a Bogey comp, so a nett birdie is enough to win the hole.

 

[Foxholer]

foxy seems to be fighting a loosing battle, so I will join in

Not so much fighting a losing battle. I'm not convinced myself!:mmm: My issie is the same as others - that there's no credit for Birdie-ing a shot hole and no penalty for blob-ing one. I'm satisfied that, in a large enough field, 'statistics' mean there's little difference to other Strokeply forms from a results point of view, so it's valid to have it as a qualifier. I wouldn't object though if a club manufactured circumstances to make it an NQ-er though!

@Socket. Here's an extract from Ru;le 32 Bogey/Par Comps...

Bogey, par and Stableford competitions are forms of stroke play in which play is against a fixed score at each hole. The Rules for stroke play, so far as they are not at variance with the following specific Rules, apply.
In handicap bogey, par and Stableford competitions, the competitor with the lowest net score at a hole takes the honour at the next teeing ground.

 

[louise_a]

But he's not playing a stableford, he stood on the first tee knowing he was playing in a Bogey comp, so a nett birdie is enough to win the hole.

This is true, but surely the fact that a net bogey and a net double bogey have the same effect on your score in a par comp but a different effect in a stableford and a medal, must mean that using a par comp as a qualifier is flawed.