Here comes the rollback..maybe

[need_my_wedge]

.... Would Seve get a look in now? I doubt it. He was shocking off the tee.......

Surely the drivers they play with today would have helped him out a lot more.

Equally, give today's players an old persimmon wood and see how they go. They may flush the odd one or two, but I bet they're a lot wilder and don't hit as far as they are using today's drivers. Which is the point of the article. I'm not arguing for reducing the euipment, it already makes the amateur game a lot easier as much as it does the pro game, but, as has been mentioned above, today's players are also a lot fitter, and coached better than they were in Seve's heyday, much like Premier League footballers. They head to the gym after the round/ game instead of the pub, the game changes as many aspects of the game improve. Personally I don't think the competition courses should punish distance, but they should punish more wayward shots, I don't get any help when by ball is carved right or hooked left through a thick tree line, no one spotting my ball falling in the leaves or the long grass, or landing in a nice wide area that has been trodden down. Toughen the courses by all means, but leave the kit alone - I'll take all the help I can get.

 

[cliveb]

I saw an interesting suggestion that seems to be a workable solution in pretty much all respects.
It requires no redesign of courses or equipment, doesn't require lots of rough to be allowed to grow up (and hence impact on members' enjoyment in the weeks leading up to a tournament), and retains an element of risk-reward for those prepared to give it a go, but penalises those who take it on and fail.

And the suggestion is this: simply place penalty areas at strategic points when setting up the course for professional tournaments. All you need is a bunch of yellow stakes and a hammer (and a good appreciation of were to put them, of course!).
Can anyone see a downside to this?

 

[Diamond]

A friend has an old Wilson driver and has recently started playing again after a long time away from the game. He is having lessons with a local pro and the pro hit 280 yards with a modern driver. He then hit with the old Wilson driver and it went 225 yards. I think that it speak volumes myself.

 

[jim8flog]

A friend has an old Wilson driver and has recently started playing again after a long time away from the game. He is having lessons with a local pro and the pro hit 280 yards with a modern driver. He then hit with the old Wilson driver and it went 225 yards. I think that it speak volumes myself.

Not a particularly good pro then!!

If you watch the Shells Wondeful World of Golf films from the 60s/70s many of the pros produced drives around the 300 yard mark with Persimmon woods and Balata balls so the equipment back then was still good in a capable hand

I had a Wilson Whale 20+ years ago and hit some my of longest drives ever with that club

I do take the point. Maybe my drives back then would have been even longer with modern clubs but that would mean I would probably have reduced my driver usage to just 2-4 holes on the course where I play.

 

[jim8flog]

One of the interesting point I found is this

For a course of, say, 6000 to 6500 yards, the issue is not about hosting elite male events, but about potentially losing the ability to attract and keep golfers who may come to perceive the course as too short from the longest tees.

Where I play the course is 5818/6106. Through the years we have have lost some up and coming juniors for this reason.

We do not have a problem with membership numbers overall but it noticeable the the biggest increase has been from newcomers to the game or players moving from other courses to ours because of our location and condition rather than because our course is longer than the one they came from.

 

[Grant85]

Personal feeling is that they must be able to make a ball that takes a bit of distance off the bombers but doesn't really impact people below the pro and elite amateur level.

My guess is a ball that spins more at higher speed. Elite ball strikers and bombers would still have an advantage, especially as they would find it easier to stop a long iron or wood on the greens. And a ball with more spin would mean a lot more knock down and dead arm shots into greens - especially in firm conditions.

Courses could widen up a bit at pro level and allow for angles to become important and play as the architect intended. And I'm pretty certain pro events would do a better job of finding the best all round player rather than finding the best putter, that happens with a lot of set ups.

I'm fairly sure a manufacturer could make the ball for this within a few weeks. But how you go about legislating for it as well as enforcing it is another matter?
We all saw what they came up with regarding the long putter... which ended up being an anchoring ban rather than a long putter ban. I'd guess because of the unintended consequences of trying to spec rules for a putter.

I wouldn't be against them restricting driver length or head size, but I think it would be a big step to roll golf clubs back and make millions of clubs around the world illegal over night.

 

[Dibby]

This is a fascinating topic, I'm not sure there are many easy solutions that will please everyone. My thoughts:

1. Rolling back equipment of balls is probably a bad idea. Most people have invested a significant amount (to them) so making it obsolete will not help golf, stopping where we are is probably a reasonable solution. Although it's been done with grooves and the British ball, so possible.
2. Biurification will not be popular, most sports (there are a few exceptions) don't have this. People like to use the same kit as the pros. Additionally, making players have to switch equipment if they are up and coming adds additional cost and hassle.
3. Is distance itself really a problem, or is it how people have reacted to distance by lengthening courses, rather than looking at other course setup options?
4. Being a big hitter shouldn't be punished, just becasue historically golf did not attract "athletes" doesn't mean it is now bad that it does.
5. Why is it bad that the way the game is played has changed? It's not uncommon for different styles evolve in other sports, why is it bad for this to happen to golf?

 

[Russ_D]

Maybe rather than looking at rolling back the distance of the ball we should be looking at the control of the ball?
What if Tour pro's were playing 2 piece surlyn balls? Sure the distance would be there but it would change the way they play shots into the green. Plus after the numerous Pro V vs Toplite XL youtube vids i've watched it seems they all come to the same conclusion that the Topflite is actually a fair bit shorter. Win-Win, less control and shorter distance at only a tenner a pack

 

[rksquire]

Players have improved, their strength and conditioning have improved, access to a multitude of stats allowing for minor tweaks has improved, the ball has improved and the technology has improved.

What hasn't improved is the governance and the course set ups. Don't want guys to fly the ball 300-320 yards, grow the rough to knee height or have a burn to increase the risk reward; or put OOBs 1 yard off the fairway between 290 and 340 - so reward the straight long hitter, punish guys lashing it 320 who don't care where it lands.

I've no issue with stupid winning scores as it's all relative to the field; -21 beating out -20 is the same as -2 beating out -1; the elite player has still won by a single shot

 

[Russ_D]

Maybe take a leaf out of this course?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Bonifas
Sure, its a 1 hole par 3 course but its surounded on 3 sides by minefields. Add few extra "hazards" at tour courses and even DJ would be taking a 7iron off the tee

 

[The Fader]

Are ever increasing distances really a major problem for golf as a whole? Sure there are elite golfers who can overpower golf courses but these number a fraction of 1% of golfers. By the same store, the number of courses that hold elite events are probably a similar fraction of less than 1% of courses worldwide.

How many of our regular Saturday morning tracks are regularly "taken apart" in the monthly medal? Yes, there are mid handicappers who can get the ball out there towards 300 yards - but how often and in which direction? Even if they hit the fairway there is a pretty good chance they will miss the green - that's why they are mid handicappers!

Hitting the ball a long way is a skill that should encouraged provided it goes hand in hand with accuracy. As such there is in my opinion no need to change or restrict equipment and ball characteristics, Do we suggest that better short game players should be penalised by restricting the loft on their wedges? That better putters should have a smaller hole to aim for?

It really is all down to course design - and even here I'm not advocating narrowing fairways at 300 yards. What I suggest is that at these courses that host elite events narrow the fairway down its entire length and make the semi rough a genuine half shot penalty. If you can hit it 300 yards+ and keep it straight you are rewarded but you don't give the shorter hitters more to aim at. Another potential solution would be to make adjoining and parallel holes out of bounds off the tee. Thus removing the possibility of carving if 50 yards off line and still being able to hit the green.

Watching the PGA tour - most weeks there is massive width on a lot of fairways - way wider than my own course. The Pro's have got used to being able to hit driver anywhere without real penalty. Punish them properly and mindsets will change and they will be forced to consider playing the course as the designer intended. Or take a risk that they can actually hit a 20 yard wide target 300+ yards away. And if they can - well done and take your rewards.

These elite courses are awash with money, so setting up the course once a year to host professional golf is their choice and financially viable and if members want the benefits and kudos that comes with hosting such events then a few weeks of tougher conditions whilst the semi rough is grown is the price you pay.

From what I read - club handicaps have not seen dramitic improvements that go hand in hand with equipment developments and add to this the ageing golf population - I believe that the majority of courses will, in the mid term, need to consider reducing lengths by using forward tees to keep the game enjoyable for the majority of ordinary golfers.

 

[Grant85]

Those saying about course set up... I'm afraid this is already done but is only possible to an extent to control the scoring. And ultimately it doesn't allow for a range of players with a range of skills to compete.

Look at the Dubai event a few weeks ago. Slivers of fairways that were impossible to hit, whether you were Eddie Pepperell or Bryson DeChambau. Ultimately there's only one way to play the hole. Bomb it as far as you can, if you find the fairway, then go for it. But more than likely you're gouging out of the rough and trying to get lucky or avoid any big numbers. Roll a few putts in and you're climbing the leaderboard.

Very similar to the PGA at Bethpage last year. Un-Dynamic and not interesting to watch. Bombers have a huge advantage because ultimately everyone is in the rough but they are going in with 9 iron as opposed to 6 iron.

Compare that to Carnoustie where everything from eagle to double bogey was available on the back 9. Loads of different players in the mix at every Carnoustie Open, 2018 - Frankie, Tiger, Spieth, Rose, Rory, Eddie Pep, Kisner, Schauffle etc. A fantastic event, allowed to be because of the course. but if it had been soft and the rough lush, then almost certain we'd never have had the same range of players in the mix.

 

[94tegsi]

Surely if driving distance is the issue the easiest thing to look at is the driver...

Bifurcation of the ball I think would be unworkable because it would likely give fundamentally different results dependent on ball, which may be an issue for an up and coming golfer having to in part relearn the game as they get to the elite level. Even for irons, wedges etc.

Change the COR of the driver for pros.
Reduce shaft length.
Reduce head size.

Keep as is for all non elite comps to give us a choice of using our current equipment or using what the pros use.
You won’t go back to 1990’s distances but it will bring things back in line and potentially curb it increasing too far further.

 

[sunshine]

Maybe rather than looking at rolling back the distance of the ball we should be looking at the control of the ball?
What if Tour pro's were playing 2 piece surlyn balls? Sure the distance would be there but it would change the way they play shots into the green. Plus after the numerous Pro V vs Toplite XL youtube vids i've watched it seems they all come to the same conclusion that the Topflite is actually a fair bit shorter. Win-Win, less control and shorter distance at only a tenner a pack

Make pros use top-flites. I like it!

 

[Imurg]

Make pros use top-flites. I like it!

I believe the Long Drive guys are using them this year.......

 

[Parsaregood]

I think they should reduce the maximum allowed driver size to make them more unforgiving. The guys these days can literally get away with swinging as hard as possible and even if they dont middle it, the MOI is so high it makes little difference. if they brought the driver size down to say 380, sure you can still crack it as far if you middle it but its bringing the skill of hitting it out the middle back into play. I guarantee guys wouldn't swing as hard on certain layouts. I also believe that there should be an agreed standard for golf balls with the governing bodies having control over certain elements of this. Bring back the shot makers

 

[garyinderry]

What people cant relate to is driver wedge shots to near 500yard par 4s.

Mid irons into par4s are nearly dead. The longer hitters are now only hitting them into par 5s.


The ball doesn't go too far for us amateurs. Some of us are still slugging 3 woods into par 4s.

 

[Crow]

I think they should reduce the maximum allowed driver size to make them more unforgiving. The guys these days can literally get away with swinging as hard as possible and even if they dont middle it, the MOI is so high it makes little difference. if they brought the driver size down to say 380, sure you can still crack it as far if you middle it but its bringing the skill of hitting it out the middle back into play. I guarantee guys wouldn't swing as hard on certain layouts. I also believe that there should be an agreed standard for golf balls with the governing bodies having control over certain elements of this. Bring back the shot makers

380 is still huge for these guys. I'd go to 250, or even 200, that would sort the ball strikers from the slashers.

Persimmons were around 190 and the good drivers such as Greg Norman really stood out from the field.

 

[Crow]

What people cant relate to is driver wedge shots to near 500yard par 4s.

Mid irons into par4s are nearly dead. The longer hitters are now only hitting them into par 5s.


The ball doesn't go too far for us amateurs. Some of us are still slugging 3 woods into par 4s.

I disagree, most younger players and anyone who can play to a decent level will not need a 3 wood unless the hole is over 450 yards or playing into the wind.

A long par 4 used to be unreachable in two for all but the best players.

(Damn, I wasn't going to post in this thread.)

 

[harpo_72]

I thought there were a few videos showing old driver distance with a modern ball and if the tester was a clean striker this was pretty small.
I do agree that a larger face inspires confidence and people hit harder ... winding back to control seems to have disappeared somewhat.

The answer is in the ball it has to be.