Has WHS contributed to Slow Play

[DaveR]

54 handicaps were the limit long before the WHS was introduced.
something like 2016/17 for 'Club Handicaps'
and January 2018 for CONGU Handicaps

I know that but under the old system it was a max of 28 for men. Have you conveniently ignored that?

 

[wjemather]

If people get more shots under WHS then I guess it's fair to say that rounds will take longer. Someone with a course handicap of say 60 shots instead of 28 under the old system has loads more shots before they have to pick up.

Do you have any examples of this happening? An individual handicap record would have needed to be very sparse for the Course Handicap to get doubled like that, and the handicap committee concerned would have been all over it before a ball ever got teed up. In addition, if someone were to legitimately require that many more strokes, what makes you think they were picking up half way down almost every hole previously?

 

[wjemather]

I know that but under the old system it was a max of 28 for men. Have you conveniently ignored that?

No it wasn't. It was 54.0 (prior to 2016 as disability handicaps, since 2016 as club & disability handicaps, and since 2018 as full CONGU handicaps).
Perhaps you are confusing it with the limits put in place by many competition committees?

 

[sweaty sock]

That I agree with, but then there are “ generous mates gimmies “ … you know the ones. Those slippery 2ft ones that would my your ass twitch in a medal but they seem to be given in bounce games. No can do if you’re scoring a card and if you haven’t putted one in weeks they’re even worse, or in the case slower.

And then the "why do i care" gimmies for a bogey when the holes already won in a matchplsy situation. Or the 'do what you like' gimmies in a bounce game.

Surely no one is arguing thst a counting round take the same time as a bounce game.

But as pointed out, there are bigger things at play, not only more members post covid, but significantly more members who play regularly. Gone are the once a month and once a quarter members. I reckon weve replaced 50 or more members who played less than 6 rounds a year, with 50 who play 4 times a week...

 

[rulefan]

And then the "why do i care" gimmies for a bogey when the holes already won in a matchplsy situation. Or the 'do what you like' gimmies in a bounce game.

Surely no one is arguing thst a counting round take the same time as a bounce game.

But as pointed out, there are bigger things at play, not only more members post covid, but significantly more members who play regularly. Gone are the once a month and once a quarter members. I reckon weve replaced 50 or more members who played less than 6 rounds a year, with 50 who play 4 times a week...

All our various 'roll-up' and 'fiddle' groups are overwhelmed by requests from new members to join them.

 

[2blue]

Lord Tyrion said:
I have yet to play with anyone who has been putting a card in outside of a comp so this has simply not been a thing. It is either a comp, so card is done, or social game in which case it is purely for fun and a card is not kept, unless for interest.

Same here.

WOW...... except for B'Ball & team games I don't play without putting a card in, hence 66 Q scores this year & 6 of my 8 are from the last 4 weeks (last 20 mid-Sept) so closely reflect end-of-season conditions. If you don't do this then I can only think that you are now sitting on a Summer or out-of-season H/cap.
Most of our Club Members with H/caps (430) have largely embraced this as we have had 3,311 GP rounds this year..... all returned & dealt with.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Just had this from the club;

"We are all aware of the new World Handicapping System. In previous years especially during the winter months we have moved the position of our white tees allowing the course to play slightly shorter in the depths of winter. Moving the tees regularly also allowed the various teeing areas to get some rest at a time of year when there is no growth.

For the course to be set up for qualifying rounds (both competition and general play) we are no longer allowed to shorten a hole by more than ten yards and the course in its entirety must not be shorter than one hundred yards of it measured length.

As you can imagine this is adding undue wear to certain teeing grounds which is unsustainable. Our simple solution will be to display under the course plan next to the white gates a notice to say which tees are available for general play cards on a daily basis. This will allow us to move the tees around and therefore rest certain areas as required whilst still allowing everyone the opportunity of completing supplementary cards for handicap purposes.

It has been nice to see more of you playing from the yellow tees. At this time of year with the colder, wetter conditions with no roll on the ball hopefully the yellows present a fairer set of tees where more of you can enjoy yourselves."

If WHS is going to make rounds slower, this might have something to do with it.

And the wear aspect is something that could do with addressing, other than by the measures above.

 

[nickjdavis]

Just had this from the club;

"We are all aware of the new World Handicapping System. In previous years especially during the winter months we have moved the position of our white tees allowing the course to play slightly shorter in the depths of winter. Moving the tees regularly also allowed the various teeing areas to get some rest at a time of year when there is no growth.

For the course to be set up for qualifying rounds (both competition and general play) we are no longer allowed to shorten a hole by more than ten yards and the course in its entirety must not be shorter than one hundred yards of it measured length.

As you can imagine this is adding undue wear to certain teeing grounds which is unsustainable. Our simple solution will be to display under the course plan next to the white gates a notice to say which tees are available for general play cards on a daily basis. This will allow us to move the tees around and therefore rest certain areas as required whilst still allowing everyone the opportunity of completing supplementary cards for handicap purposes.

It has been nice to see more of you playing from the yellow tees. At this time of year with the colder, wetter conditions with no roll on the ball hopefully the yellows present a fairer set of tees where more of you can enjoy yourselves."

If WHS is going to make rounds slower, this might have something to do with it.

And the wear aspect is something that could do with addressing, other than by the measures above.

We have issued virtually the same sort of notice this week.

The key driver is the protection of our white tees across the winter months....whilst we do hold qualifiers throughout the winter we wish to protect our relatively small white teeing areas from excessive wear so have decided to restrict general play qualifying rounds from the white tees, to allow the green staff to move the white tee markers to other spare teeing areas...which would render the course as non-qualifying. We have told players that the ability to select the white tees for a general play round registered in the England Golf app, will be disabled. Obviously tee markers will be moved back to appropriate positions for comps.

 

[rulefan]

Just had this from the club;

... we are no longer allowed to shorten a hole by more than ten yards

I understood that EG are flexible re the 10 yards

and the course in its entirety must not be shorter than one hundred yards of it measured length.

Appendix G allows the club to deal with this

 

[chellie]

Lord Tyrion said:
I have yet to play with anyone who has been putting a card in outside of a comp so this has simply not been a thing. It is either a comp, so card is done, or social game in which case it is purely for fun and a card is not kept, unless for interest.


WOW...... except for B'Ball & team games I don't play without putting a card in, hence 66 Q scores this year & 6 of my 8 are from the last 4 weeks (last 20 mid-Sept) so closely reflect end-of-season conditions. If you don't do this then I can only think that you are now sitting on a Summer or out-of-season H/cap.
Most of our Club Members with H/caps (430) have largely embraced this as we have had 3,311 GP rounds this year..... all returned & dealt with.

My last Q comp was on the 22/09/21. NO Q scores at ours over winter due to works etc

 

[clubchamp98]

Just had this from the club;

"We are all aware of the new World Handicapping System. In previous years especially during the winter months we have moved the position of our white tees allowing the course to play slightly shorter in the depths of winter. Moving the tees regularly also allowed the various teeing areas to get some rest at a time of year when there is no growth.

For the course to be set up for qualifying rounds (both competition and general play) we are no longer allowed to shorten a hole by more than ten yards and the course in its entirety must not be shorter than one hundred yards of it measured length.

As you can imagine this is adding undue wear to certain teeing grounds which is unsustainable. Our simple solution will be to display under the course plan next to the white gates a notice to say which tees are available for general play cards on a daily basis. This will allow us to move the tees around and therefore rest certain areas as required whilst still allowing everyone the opportunity of completing supplementary cards for handicap purposes.

It has been nice to see more of you playing from the yellow tees. At this time of year with the colder, wetter conditions with no roll on the ball hopefully the yellows present a fairer set of tees where more of you can enjoy yourselves."

If WHS is going to make rounds slower, this might have something to do with it.

And the wear aspect is something that could do with addressing, other than by the measures above.

I work for a green keeping firm now.
Not an expert by any means. But am learning a lot.
But you only have to look at any football pitch to see where the overuse is.( goalmouth)
By playing on the main tees all year round there is going to be a issue with the quality, especially the par threes.
Until all these Supplementary cards were being put in the tees did get a rest when they are at their weakest.
But people now want the whole course open year round so they can put a card in.
Two markers on the fairway won’t do anymore.
Unintended consequences that need addressing with a winter rated course.

 

[2blue]

My last Q comp was on the 22/09/21. NO Q scores at ours over winter due to works etc

Oh.... shame to finish do soon considering the weather we've had upto a few days ago. Has caused us to go non.

 

[clubchamp98]

I understood that EG are flexible re the 10 yards

Appendix G allows the club to deal with this

Are you saying these can be circumvented.?
Why have rules if you can “adjust “ them

 

[Swango1980]

Not noticed any increase in the pace of play for me or the people that play around me. It takes no time at all to tap in a putt that would have been a gimme anyway. Not really noticed people concentrating extra hard in general either. If they do, maybe that takes a little extra time. But, if it results in them playing a little better, that may reduce time if it eliminates the odd bad shot, and they have fewer shots a round.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Lord Tyrion said:
I have yet to play with anyone who has been putting a card in outside of a comp so this has simply not been a thing. It is either a comp, so card is done, or social game in which case it is purely for fun and a card is not kept, unless for interest.


WOW...... except for B'Ball & team games I don't play without putting a card in, hence 66 Q scores this year & 6 of my 8 are from the last 4 weeks (last 20 mid-Sept) so closely reflect end-of-season conditions. If you don't do this then I can only think that you are now sitting on a Summer or out-of-season H/cap.
Most of our Club Members with H/caps (430) have largely embraced this as we have had 3,311 GP rounds this year..... all returned & dealt with.

I guess the key is whether someone plays in comps regularly enough for the handicaps to be an accurate reflection. I put in enough cards, imo, that it is about right so I am pretty relaxed about it's accuracy during spring, summer, autumn. Winter is another matter.........long course playing longer

 

[jim8flog]

I know that but under the old system it was a max of 28 for men. Have you conveniently ignored that?

No

It was 54 for any player unless you mean prior to about 2016 ( All golfers were allowed a 'club handicap' up to 54) up to Jan 2018 when the CONGU max became 54
https://www.gcma.org.uk/news/what-will-54-handicaps-actually-mean/

 

[Blue in Munich]

I understood that EG are flexible re the 10 yards

Is that because it says should, or is there something else you are aware of?

The front of a teeing area, as defined in the Rules of Golf, should not be placed more than 10 yards (10 metres) in front of, or behind, the relevant permanent distance marker on each hole. Overall, the golf course should not be shortened (or lengthened) by more than 100 yards (100 metres) from its measured length, to ensure accurate application of the Course Rating and Slope Rating in the calculation of players’ Score Differentials.

Appendix G allows the club to deal with this

I presume you mean this;


Modification of Courses


(i) Temporary Changes

The Handicap Committee must notify the Authorized Association when temporary changes are being made to the golf coursethat may affect the Course Rating. The Authorized Association will determine whether scores made under such conditions are acceptable for handicap purposes, and whether the Course Rating and Slope Rating should be modified temporarily.

Where a temporary Course Rating and Slope Rating has been issued, this information must be made available to players prior to the commencement of their round.

If so, we still have to go to the Authorised Association to get it approved; is this a one-off, or every time we change it? It would have been good if this had been automatically incorporated.

 

[Ross61]

The only thing I have noticed is an increase in provisional balls played when someone is playing a general round card. Especially when someone is receiving 2 shots on a hole. Before WHS and general round score it was no real biggie if you couldn’t find your ball, nobody went back to the tee in a bounce game. They just shrugged their shoulders or swore a bit and carried on.

 

[Ross61]

That isn't the full story. Supplementary Scores had been available for years before WHS. Admittedly with a little more effort but apps were well on their way to this country.
It's more that the national unions put pressure on players to get plenty of scores in to make transition look more sensible. Since then players have worked out for themselves that more cards mean more accurate handicaps and they are seemingly enjoying the bit of extra pressure or (a cynical thought) the opportunity to get their handicap to where they want it.

I only once played with someone handing in a supplementary card. I was going to do one once but when I told the pro in the shop he wanted to charge me £2 for admin, so I changed my mind.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

That isn't the full story. Supplementary Scores had been available for years before WHS. Admittedly with a little more effort but apps were well on their way to this country.
It's more that the national unions put pressure on players to get plenty of scores in to make transition look more sensible. Since then players have worked out for themselves that more cards mean more accurate handicaps and they are seemingly enjoying the bit of extra pressure or (a cynical thought) the opportunity to get their handicap to where they want it.

Exactly- re your last sentence. So there is no real merit in saying that the more casual round cards that go in, the more accurate your handicap will be than the old system. Because it can still be manipulated. The same unscrupulous people will manipulate their handicap just as the same honest people will not.
All this encouragement by WHS ( to put in more "supplementary" cards) is doing is having more people playing more rounds to the full rules of golf, which must mean taking longer .
Maybe cat 1 players can play as quick whichever - card or no card -
but most mid and high handicappers would find that isn't the case for them.


It is not on to see the reality as an attack on WHS thereby requiring a defence which denies common sense.