Handicap question

[SammmeBee]

What I'm driving at is a similar level of befuddlement overlaying an otherwise straight forward system such RGUK's.

What system - go through everyone's cards? Great job for someone that is.....say conservatively every member does 1 card every 2 weeks apart from Christmas week - 25 a year, a golf club has 500 members - that's 12500 to look at.....

The problem - i believe - is with the players not returning their cards but mainly the chap who is in charge of the handicaps not understanding how to apply what CONGU have laid down, which if you read it and get used to applying (i used to help my dad a bit) it is actually straight forward...

The key point is that handicaps are an 'average' (but of your best scores) and when applied to a number of scores evens out in all players....if you play once or even only 3 times a year then the 'average' is easily put out of balance....

My handicap this year went from 5.2 to 7.1 and back down to 5.2 again - off of 7 I was pretty invincable but it took alot of rubbish to get there but my 'average' got evened out in the last month or so and I am back to where I started, which is what I did last year too also.....

 

[USER1999]

I used to put in 50 cards a year, h/cap 12. I now put in about 15 cards per year, guess what, h/cap 12. Nothing changes, it all averages out. The key thing is putting some cards in.

 

[SammmeBee]

Yes murphy but over time you have put in loads of cards - these boys are talking about people who have only ever put in 3......

 

[DCB]

Tht's a flaw with the current handicap system. The EGU dont stiplulate that you must enter 3 cards each season or your handicap lapses. SGU do this and it may not be ideal but it stops the handy handicap brigade playing lots of golf as social outings and then sweeping all before them in matchplay or works outings.

I think that a minimum of 5 cards per year should be required to maintain a handicap.

 

[algarvegolfer]

This would be decided by the slope rating of the course when the cards where given in to the handicap secretary, no player is allowed to adjust his handicap to please a fellow competitor, if he does this he will be signing a scorecard with a wrong handicap, penalty for this is Disqualification

6-2. Handicap
• a. Match Play
Before starting a match in a handicap competition, the players should determine from one another their respective handicaps. If a player begins a match having declared a handicap higher than that to which he is entitled and this affects the number of strokes given or received, he is disqualified; otherwise, the player must play off the declared handicap.

• b. Stroke Play
In any round of a handicap competition, the competitor must ensure that his handicap is recorded on his score card before it is returned to the Committee. If no handicap is recorded on his score card before it is returned (Rule 6-6b), or if the recorded handicap is higher than that to which he is entitled and this affects the number of strokes received, he is disqualified from the handicap competition; otherwise, the score stands.

 

[SammmeBee]

This would be decided by the slope rating of the course when the cards where given in to the handicap secretary, no player is allowed to adjust his handicap to please a fellow competitor, if he does this he will be signing a scorecard with a wrong handicap, penalty for this is Disqualification

6-2. Handicap
• a. Match Play
Before starting a match in a handicap competition, the players should determine from one another their respective handicaps. If a player begins a match having declared a handicap higher than that to which he is entitled and this affects the number of strokes given or received, he is disqualified; otherwise, the player must play off the declared handicap.

• b. Stroke Play
In any round of a handicap competition, the competitor must ensure that his handicap is recorded on his score card before it is returned to the Committee. If no handicap is recorded on his score card before it is returned (Rule 6-6b), or if the recorded handicap is higher than that to which he is entitled and this affects the number of strokes received, he is disqualified from the handicap competition; otherwise, the score stands.

I'm not sure it would and we haven't got slope ratings anyway......I can't disagree with the second bit but I don;t thinkg it's a problem - it's how they get the handicap and keep it is the problem...

Top first post though - welcome!!!

 

[USER1999]

Courses in Scotland can apply to have a slope rating (probably due to the number of yanks who come over to play). The system is not available in England.

 

[RGuk]

What I'm driving at is a similar level of befuddlement overlaying an otherwise straight forward system such RGUK's.

What system - go through everyone's cards? Great job for someone that is.....say conservatively every member does 1 card every 2 weeks apart from Christmas week - 25 a year, a golf club has 500 members - that's 12500 to look at.....

Firstly, thanks for running with me on this chaps.

I am NOT suggesting for one moment that all cards need to be looked at, NO, not at all.
What I am talking about is taking the occasional look at certain types of member.
ALL new h'cap players should hand in their first 6? cards as a matter of course. After that (in the first year, say) on the request of the player, there ought to be a system that allows adjustment to the h'cap regardless of if the player has played in 52 weekly yellow comps.
If you/I play once a week and hand in consistent cards of 2-6 over my h'cap, then on some of those cards an adjustment of +0.1 would be totally justified.

Just my opinion....

 

[USER1999]

I think I can see your problem (to an extent). If you join a club, and put in 3 cards, you are given a h/cap based on the lowest score, discounting anything more than a double. If this score was off the yellows, then you have a double whammy of a lower h/cap than you can play to, based on a shorter course, and as the cards were casual play, no SS to adjust it by. If you don't ever put anymore cards in, it will never go up, and hence playing off the back tees is more challenging.

However, this only really applies to higher h/caps, as a better golfer, say high single figures, probably won't have anything worse than doubles, so their h/cap is more accurate to start with, although still based off the yellows.

For matchplay, basing the h/cap on nothing worse than doubles is probably right, as a 9 on one hole just loses the hole. For medal this is more difficult. However, since h/caps can be adjusted on stableford (even in a medal comp), higher handicaps don't really ever medal, they effectively play stableford, until such times as they stop racking up phone numbers.

The answer is enter comps, as many as you can, and put cards in.

If someone doesn't want to do this, then their h/cap will always be wrong, but more likely to be too low than too high, based on the initial 3 cards for a high h/capper, unless they don't put cards in for years, and become a better player.

Not sure where this is going, just rambling on really.

 

[RGuk]

However, this only really applies to higher h/caps, as a better golfer, say high single figures, probably won't have anything worse than doubles, so their h/cap is more accurate to start with, although still based off the yellows.

I think this is a REALLY clever point.

IF I had handed in three cards and all of those cards had 3 or 4 triples (regardless of which was best) then IF I continued in that form, my h'cap would be 3 or 4 shots lower than my weekly medal score.
In my case, I had 1 triple and had my 13 over gross (yellow SSS) turned into a 12 over....which then gave me my h'cap.

Players up to 10 (approx) are most likely to have not had any triples or worse "cut down". Therefore, I agree with your point.

What I find hard to accept is that players never playing in white tee comps are "allowed" to score great returns and never get cut. The chap that won our weekly 9 hole (eve comp) over the summer averaged 22.? points per 9. That's 44-45 points for every two outings, he did this for 15 weeks solid and never got cut.

Although I'm not happy, I'd be less happy if I was a 20 player and kept returning 24-28 over yellow SSS and wasn't entitled to any +0.1s.

 

[Herbie]

People forget that if they have a h/c that they think is inaccurate they can write to or speak to the committee requesting an adjustment, most committees viewing the evidence presented will adjust on that basis, I did it myself in the past.

My current h/c of 9 is h/c from another club that is a little more difficult to play which is why I am always below h/c on current course, I expect to lose a shot at this club, maybe 2 it depends whether they accept my h/c from previous club or play me in, they can do either.

The point about h/c is that it should not be easy peasy to play to, or below your h/c it should be difficult, when it gets easy it should be lowered.

 

[billyg]

People forget that if they have a h/c that they think is inaccurate they can write to or speak to the committee requesting an adjustment, most committees viewing the evidence presented will adjust on that basis, I did it myself in the past.

My current h/c of 9 is h/c from another club that is a little more difficult to play which is why I am always below h/c on current course, I expect to lose a shot at this club, maybe 2 it depends whether they accept my h/c from previous club or play me in, they can do either.

The point about h/c is that it should not be easy peasy to play to, or below your h/c it should be difficult, when it gets easy it should be lowered.

Indeed.

Its a measure of your potential. To play to ones potential should by definition be an act of considerable achievement.

If you match or exceed the stated potential regularly then you need to be set a new goal.

If you are never able to even approach the stated potential then you need to reflect on the scope of your ambition and adjust accordingly.

On the whole the HC system, if applied earnestly by those involved, appears to do just that.

bill

 

[Smiffy]

People forget that if they have a h/c that they think is inaccurate they can write to or speak to the committee requesting an adjustment, most committees viewing the evidence presented will adjust on that basis, I did it myself in the past.

As I have in the past.
When I first started playing at Crowborough I was given a handicap of 23. I really struggled for about two years or so. Couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo.
But thanks to lessons and a change of kit I finally turned the corner and started playing better. My handicap started to head in the right direction and I was desperate to get it down to a "respectable" level. Despite being a member of a club I obviously continued playing at other courses on days out with mates etc. and when I had good rounds, irrespective of where I was playing or what tees I was playing off, I kept my cards and handed them in to the Secretary at Crowborough who "admired" my honesty and cut my handicap accordingly.

I have organised lots of golfing trips with my mates, and was "secretary" of quite a large golf society for a number of years, and more arguments have ensued over handicaps than anything else.

 

[viscount17]

I thought CONGU stated that cards from general play no longer counted toward handicap?
though I saw a notice in the club about supplementary cards from rounds declared in advance and played off whites if too few have been returned in competition, which seems to confound that.

 

[RGuk]

People forget that if they have a h/c that they think is inaccurate they can write to or speak to the committee requesting an adjustment, most committees viewing the evidence presented will adjust on that basis, I did it myself in the past.

This is what I tried and was turned down.

 

[SammmeBee]

I thought CONGU stated that cards from general play no longer counted toward handicap?
though I saw a notice in the club about supplementary cards from rounds declared in advance and played off whites if too few have been returned in competition, which seems to confound that.

Only if you have played in 6 or less qualifying competitions in the last calendar year.......

 

[SammmeBee]

People forget that if they have a h/c that they think is inaccurate they can write to or speak to the committee requesting an adjustment, most committees viewing the evidence presented will adjust on that basis, I did it myself in the past.

This is what I tried and was turned down.

At the risk of being repetitive you need a new club - or you need to make a bigger deal - when is the next AGM? Or write a letter to the committee and ask for a written answer.....

 

[RGuk]

At the risk of being repetitive you need a new club - or you need to make a bigger deal - when is the next AGM? Or write a letter to the committee and ask for a written answer.....

Hmmm, I'm in two minds. It's not that I'm not happy with my exact figure (11.6) but more that I feel it should be adjusted when I'm way off (under or over).
It seems strange to me that players can make 44 points in a mid-week off yellows, not get cut and go on to win the big comps with similar scores.
In reality, if a h'cap is supposed to represent what you CAN play to, then I'm a bandit anyway.....I've played well under this season, just not around my own course....

 

[SammmeBee]

I've played well under this season, just not around my own course....

but not in competitions.......

 

[RGuk]

I've played well under this season, just not around my own course....

but not in competitions.......

arghh.....yes, in comps but not the ONLY two a month that are qualifying.....seemingly.....

I'd say a midweek where the results are published and the Sunday "comps" where there are prizes at stake and also published results. The issue is that no-one can be bothered with the h'cap adjustments, so they just put everything off yellow and sod any responsibility to cut/increase.

I can't change clubs just yet......I'm tied in with the Joining Fee.