Handicap question

[billyg]

Can anyone explain this one to me;

Two players step onto the first tee and declare their handicaps to be 20.

One of them has turned in 3 cards in non-competitive play off the yellows and the other has mainly played off the whites in competition and has turned all their cards in taking the odd gain and loss accordingly.

If both player then proceed to tee off from the yellows - doesn't the player who got their 20 HC off the whites need to cut themselves down a few in order to give the other player a fair chance?

If both players then proceed to tee off from the whites - shouldn't the player who got their handicap off the yellows get a few extra strokes in order to have a fair chance?

I suppose what I'm driving at is that although both players carry a nominal HC of 20 one has had to play harder to get to that mark than the other?

Any ideas?

bill

 

[OldWindy]

If the club accepts cards for handicap off either tee (but more often than not the whites) then that's that. I don't really think in this instance either player should concede strokes as it's likely the 'yellow' player would get a handicap adjustment at some point. What the 'yellow' player should bear in mind is that his handicap is skewed and must reckon on some changes, particularly if most comps are off the whites. Got to take a stance.

 

[TonyN]

You have to state which tee's are played from when the card is marked so maybe clubs take that into consideration when they decide the final handicap. This would be the best way IMO

 

[theeaglehunter]

The SSS from the different tees would make up for this, as you have to say what tee you played from on your card and usually there is a 2-3 shot difference from yellows to white so it should be a fair handicap for each player.

 

[RGuk]

In theory, the 2 should be pretty close. If a player was allocated 20 off yellows (3 cards), the SSS should have been taken into consideration. Then again, the big numbers would have been discounted. Then again, so would a disaster card too!

I suspect the white comp player will be the more accurate and would most likely do a bit better if the game is played off whites?

 

[USER1999]

Yep, it all comes down to standard scratch. This should take it all into consideration.

 

[billyg]

cheers all,

Looking at the card the following shows up:

Yellow/ tees - par 72 - sss 68

red/white tees - par 72 - sss 70

blue tees par 72 - sss 72

I'm sure that in the calculations made in assigning HC's the sss sorts it out.

job done- faith in HC system restored

many thanks

billyG

 

[MVP]

At my old club all handicaps are done off the whites!

 

[Herbie]

Some clubs play members in on the yellows as whites are normally for comps only. In theory it is better to play off yellows to obtain h/c as playing off whites makes it a little bit more difficult and results in a more accurate h/c.

The second player you mentioned has obtained a h/c through whatever means (unmentioned) then had adjustments according to their comp play results.

The situation you suggest is irrelevant regarding adjustments between the two players.

Player 1 obtained h/c in ligitimate fashion.
Player 2 assumingly did too.

If there was any question about fairness you could also look at people who's h/c was obtained on a longer course or a more difficult course as opposed to a wide open course with moderate difficulty.

In the course of time a players h/c would be corrected in the same way player 2s was.

 

[tincup]

Had this argument at my club recently. My brother who has been playing for a couple of years, decided to join his first club so it made sense for him to join mine. for his handicap, i played with him 3 times to get his cards in, for this i asked and was told that he had to play off yellows as whites are for comps only, his 3 scores were 87,88 and 97 against a par of 70. bearing in mind nearly 90% of comps are played off whites, he was given an handicap of 17

 

[viscount17]

what's the question?
as has been said previously, handicap is off the best card not the average of the three, and with anything more than a double reduced to that. plus handicaps are what you can score not what you do.
so 87 on a par 70 is 17

 

[SammmeBee]

Back to the original question - it's along the same lines of a golfer playing at a course that is 7000+ playing off of 20 and someone at a 5800 course off of 20.....the first time there will be disparity but after a few rounds the 7000+ player will soon be off of less and so 'even' things up....

 

[billyg]

If further clarification is needed for anyone that is wondering what the hell were on about, here is a very useful summary on the whole shooting match:-

http://golfclub.timesonline.co.uk/pages.php/my_handicap.html

(from the Times' own online HC service- scroll down for the useful bit)

The key in this appears to be that HC's are calculated off sss and NOT par. Someone playing (and handing in cards) from a harder tee gets a corresponding extra couple of shots in the final calculation so it works out.

By the time these two players get to the first tee the maths will have sorted them to about the same standard.

For the record - how often do you ladies and gents turn in cards?

Looking at the HC adjustment section of the Times article it seems that HC's are effectively in a state of constant flux with each round.

Do you turn in every card?

Do you just turn in the ones that will cut you a point or two?(sporting prowess, pride, accuracy etc?)

Do you just turn in the ones that will push you back up?(El bandido)

Do you turn in every third card? one a month? one a week?three a year?

All the comp. cards and none of the general play cards?

bill

 

[USER1999]

As there can be no standard scratch for general play, these should not be considered.

Cards from comps are the only valid measure of h/cap. you have the pressure of the 'this is it' factor, the course at it's toughest, and also slowest (which does add difficulty as I hate playing slowly).

I put in about 3 cards every two months. More in summer, less in spring / autumn, none in winter.

 

[SammmeBee]

Billy - the Times Golf Club is not an 'official' handicap it's just something they've made up and gone along with who the CONGU system operates.

Every score in a competition that is a qualifying one should be reported by the player to their Home Club - this is where the system falls down in England as some/most players don't do this. In Ireland, with a central handicapping system, you have to 'swipe in' to play in the competition and it get's automatically sent back by the computer.

There is no such thing as general play now - it's an annual review carried out by the Handicap Committee. But if you haven't played in many competitions you can put in Supplemental Cards.....

I think back to your original post - an initial handicap does have some chance of not being that accurate (ie in your example of different tees) but then they play in competitions (off of the same tees) - one should go up and the other down and then they will equilibrilise....

 

[RGuk]

I think back to your original post - an initial handicap does have some chance of not being that accurate (ie in your example of different tees) but then they play in competitions (off of the same tees) - one should go up and the other down and then they will equilibrilise....

Except if the situation is as my club. I got my h'cap off yellows and almost every comp I play in is off yellows (as only the twice-a-month Sat medal/stableford is off whites).

At mine, I could go round every week in either 70 or 90 and not get moved.....

I asked to have all (30-40?) of my cards looked at with consideration of adjusting me one way or another....the idea was turned down. I could ask the "yearly review" to consider me, but as I am way more consistent than almost everyone I play with (I rarely play out of the 82-87 bracket) that's a waste of time as well. Maybe I should give up my Saturday work and get the proper h'cap??

I p***** me off big time, the SSS of yellows is 1 less than the SSS off whites....it wouldn't be rocket science to apply changes to new players in their first 50 comps, regardless of tee.

I've known players to make 24-26 points on a midweek 9 hole (effectively playing near to scratch for 9) and nobody can be arsed to look at these guys???

Players with NEW handicaps should be rigorously adjusted, regardless of tee for the first year of their membership.

 

[SammmeBee]

Real you've lost me....if you play in a qualifying competition (irrespective of colour of tees) then there is a CSS and then you're handicap will get adjusted up if you shoot 90 or down if you shoot 70....or are you saying they are not qualifying competitions?

 

[RGuk]

Real you've lost me....if you play in a qualifying competition (irrespective of colour of tees) then there is a CSS and then you're handicap will get adjusted up if you shoot 90 or down if you shoot 70....or are you saying they are not qualifying competitions?

Yep.....exactly that......there are only 2 qualifying comps per month, neither of which I can play in.

 

[SammmeBee]

Need a new golf course then.....or play in a few opens?

 

[billyg]

The issue of how rigourously or otherwise a club enforces what I believe is CONGU guidelines is a slightly different argument in one respect i.e. it is a localised issue rather that a failing of the HC system yet on another it undermines the principle of the global equity upon which the HC system is based.

If you run a few figures through the system it's fairly clear that such a wide margin as RGUK suggests yields fairly dramatic changes in HC (as it should)

The last club I was at had a system where you were required to reach a certain HC before being granted 7 day membership. Fair enough but in the short time I was there and the few 'qualified' members that I played with it was quite clear that once having attained this standard then there was no going back- you were in- no matter that the members in question might have stood a better chance of turning in a good score by using a hockey stick or a traffic cone. Even being required to hand in three cards a year would have revealed the charlatans with the result that some well established members would have needed to resign their memberships.

What I'm driving at is a similar level of befuddlement overlaying an otherwise straight forward system such RGUK's.

Both examples mitigate towards the spirit of a system such as applied in Irish clubs. I don't think that it would be overloading club HC secretaries too much to ask them to judge 3 cards a year from each player..........but to make it a condition of a valid HC Cert. that it is done - such as an MOT perhaps?

bill