Handicap manipulation - how to address

[Dunesman]

If I understand correctly then Golf Ireland have gone rogue for years, through the use of low HIs rather than HIs for inter club matches.

Not as I understand it. Its only from this year, and is legal under WHS, but fundamentally reveals, that like EG valuing competition scores more highly than GP ones for its competitions, Ireland doesnt trust handicaps for entry to its either and so is applying a reduction to handicaps according to previous results in those competitions, to determine entry eligibility now. Mauritius just went too offline, and so are pausing their rule until, presumably, the R&A legalises it or solves the problem of GP scores some other way that also satisfies Mauritius but legalises it for everyone.

So clubs doing their own little fixes. Country associations doing their own thing. For a one world system, it doesnt give an image of buy-in and trust in WHS.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

As mentioned in the ‘minimum qualifying cards’ thread…if the only cards in my WHS record are GP cards submitted ‘away from home’, then I will have a HI but I wouldn’t be able to play in any of my club’s competitions. Indeed that would be the case if all but seven cards were away GP cards. At my place I must have eight ‘other than away GP’ cards to enter a comp.

I have no doubt that the club could grant exemptions to this where a member’s circumstances warrant it.

 

[Swango1980]

As mentioned in the ‘minimum qualifying cards’ thread…if the only cards in my WHS record are GP cards submitted ‘away from home’, then I will have a HI but I wouldn’t be able to play in any of my club’s competitions. Indeed that would be the case if all but seven cards were away GP cards. At my place I must have eight ‘other than away GP’ cards to enter a comp.

I have no doubt that the club could grant exemptions to this where a member’s circumstances warrant it.

Does that mean your club is not necessarily an ideal club for Away members to join?

 

[AussieKB]

FYI

From Golf OZ

2025 Changes to the Rules of Handicapping

The following changes to the Australian Rules of Handicapping will take effect at the time the new Golf Australia Connect platform commences operation and replaces GOLF Link. 1. Change to the Daily Handicap formula – inclusion of new ‘C...

help.golf.com.au

I like

'A new ‘Consistency Factor’ has been added to the Daily Handicap formula. The statistical analysis underpinning this change involved assessing the different levels of consistency exhibited by various segments of golfers, and the competitive advantage the handicap system’s existing settings offer to more inconsistent players.'

So the tweaks just keep on coming.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Does that mean your club is not necessarily an ideal club for Away members to join?

Quoting from our Competitions Handbook.

A new 7-day member with an existing WHS index is eligible for board competitions, providing they have submitted at least eight qualifying rounds on their WHS record during the previous year.

A qualifying round for such a new member would be any comp round on their record.

 

[Swango1980]

Quoting from our Competitions Handbook.

A new 7-day member with an existing WHS index is eligible for board competitions, providing they have submitted at least eight qualifying rounds on their WHS record during the previous year.

A qualifying round for such a new member would be any comp round on their record.

Sorry, got confused. You mentioned "away from home" GP scores, I focused on the away from home.

But is away from home not a red herring? Surely if your GP scores are at home, they still not help qualify you for competitions. You simply need 8 competition scores over the last year, home or away. You can have as many GP scores as you like, home or away. So, you could have 8 competition scores in the last year, and 100 GP scores (even away from home), and you still qualify for board comps?

 

[nickjdavis]

FYI

From Golf OZ

2025 Changes to the Rules of Handicapping

The following changes to the Australian Rules of Handicapping will take effect at the time the new Golf Australia Connect platform commences operation and replaces GOLF Link. 1. Change to the Daily Handicap formula – inclusion of new ‘C...

help.golf.com.au

I like

'A new ‘Consistency Factor’ has been added to the Daily Handicap formula. The statistical analysis underpinning this change involved assessing the different levels of consistency exhibited by various segments of golfers, and the competitive advantage the handicap system’s existing settings offer to more inconsistent players.'

So the tweaks just keep on coming.

I don't see how this will go anyway to solving the issues you regularly raise about high handicappers winning all the time or posting 44 pint plus scores. All this change will do is give ladies/girls a slight increase, 5%, in their daily handicap. It isn't going to do anything to resolve inconsistencies in men's scoring i.e. the inconsistencies in high handicap men's scoring patterns.

 

[AussieKB]

I don't see how this will go anyway to solving the issues you regularly raise about high handicappers winning all the time or posting 44 pint plus scores. All this change will do is give ladies/girls a slight increase, 5%, in their daily handicap. It isn't going to do anything to resolve inconsistencies in men's scoring i.e. the inconsistencies in high handicap men's scoring patterns.

It was FYI......I cannot see how they can change this system that will not benefit the people on High handicaps, let alone the ones that want to manipulate it.

We have been going years here and they still tweaking it, with out much change, much to my amusement.

 

[Dunesman]

It was FYI......I cannot see how they can change this system that will not benefit the people on High handicaps, let alone the ones that want to manipulate it.

We have been going years here and they still tweaking it, with out much change, much to my amusement.

While you have had it for longer, and Aus Golf has seen the problems for longer, they probably thought WHS would have solved them properly, and, are still trying to generally stay on board, so their scope to do anything radical isnt there. They have been limited to little tweaks.

The revision in April will hopefully get more to the root causes, and then the various regional and club coping or damage limitation tweaks wont be needed.
I dont think its that difficult to solve really and two or three key modification could combine to solve the most of the issues.

 

[Dunesman]

Sorry, got confused. You mentioned "away from home" GP scores, I focused on the away from home.

But is away from home not a red herring? Surely if your GP scores are at home, they still not help qualify you for competitions. You simply need 8 competition scores over the last year, home or away. You can have as many GP scores as you like, home or away. So, you could have 8 competition scores in the last year, and 100 GP scores (even away from home), and you still qualify for board comps?

Thats the weakness of that kind of fix. There is probably no way to do it unless its officialised by the R&A and so rolled into a software change, but what is really need to handle the above is rather than over a period, or in your 20, is a stipulation that in your Eight counting rolling counting scores, no more that one say, is a GP score. So if your most recent 20 are all GP, it goes back further to find the previous 7 comp scores and integrates those with the best of your 20 recent scores.
So strongly biasing your handicap to competition scores, and not treating them as the equals of GP scores. (which is the same syndrome that is at the root of the EG and Irish limits for their competitions).

 

[Dunesman]

EG have to play it with a straight bat, whilst there is already solid information in the public that something different is happening?

While there isnt the direct wording, there are at least two clear references, one attributed to the R&A, the other to M Slumbers. So no detail, nor how extensive or large the change. That seems under wraps until the official reveal. But that there is a 2025 change has solid grounds. EG etc not knowing about it, does not contradict that.

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

Thats the weakness of that kind of fix. There is probably no way to do it unless its officialised by the R&A and so rolled into a software change, but what is really need to handle the above is rather than over a period, or in your 20, is a stipulation that in your Eight counting rolling counting scores, no more that one say, is a GP score. So if your most recent 20 are all GP, it goes back further to find the previous 7 comp scores and integrates those with the best of your 20 recent scores.
So strongly biasing your handicap to competition scores, and not treating them as the equals of GP scores. (which is the same syndrome that is at the root of the EG and Irish limits for their competitions).

The problem with that kind of fix is that it’s built on the assumption that there’s some inherent, measurable difference between General Play (GP) scores and competition scores, but in reality, there just isn’t. A round of golf is a round of golf—same clubs, same course, same ball, same player trying to shoot the best score they can. The conditions might vary a little, sure, but they do in competitions too. Some days you get a perfect morning with no wind, other times you’re battling 30 mph gusts and greens that have just been hollow-tined. The idea that competition scores somehow hold a greater truth about a player’s ability just doesn’t really hold up when you think about it.

And then there’s the issue of practicality. If you start saying, “Well, we’re only going to count a maximum of one GP score in your eight most recent counting rounds,” then you’ve got this weird scenario where someone who plays mostly GP has to reach further and further back in time just to find old competition rounds to fill the gaps. So instead of having a handicap based on their actual recent play, they’re being weighted toward rounds they might have played months or even years ago in completely different form. What’s the logic in that? If anything, it makes handicaps less accurate, not more.

At the end of the day, if a score is valid under the Rules of Golf and properly submitted, why overcomplicate things? If the concern is that some GP scores aren’t as “serious” as competition rounds, then that’s a discussion about how GP scores are recorded and verified, not an argument for treating them as second-class scores in the system. A handicap is supposed to reflect current ability, not some artificial hierarchy of round types that don’t actually change the way the game is played.

 

[Dunesman]

The problem with that kind of fix is that it’s built on the assumption that there’s some inherent, measurable difference between General Play (GP) scores and competition scores, but in reality, there just isn’t.

I would say that there is, on the clear difference that GP scores are unbounded in number. Competition scores far more limited in opportunity. And while in theory played under the same rules, GP scores do not come with the same public element, sense of club oversight, and with normally, at least some fee, to submit one.
In the US, mulligans, gimmes, free drops, which one does hope dont happen incompetitions, certainly undermines the value of GP scores.


And, its such an easy weakness to kick, but the EG and Irish regions taking their own protective measures for their run competitions does show they do regard them with more caution. And took action despite the negative publicity and open door criticism for WHS credibility this would bring.

 

[D-S]

I would say that there is, on the clear difference that GP scores are unbounded in number. Competition scores far more limited in opportunity. And while in theory played under the same rules, GP scores do not come with the same public element, sense of club oversight, and with normally, at least some fee, to submit one.
In the US, mulligans, gimmes, free drops, which one does hope dont happen incompetitions, certainly undermines the value of GP scores.


And, its such an easy weakness to kick, but the EG and Irish regions taking their own protective measures for their run competitions does show they do regard them with more caution. And took action despite the negative publicity and open door criticism for WHS credibility this would bring.

You can guess, imagine, hypothesise as much as you like but there will not be any revisions to the basics of WHS in 2025 or 2026 and more than likely 2027.
There may be more reports available for Handicap Committees and software upgrades. There may well be pressure applied by local authorities for the submission of more GP scores (this is the EG direction of travel) but the fundamentals will not change.

 

[Colin L]

I would say that there is, on the clear difference that GP scores are unbounded in number. Competition scores far more limited in opportunity. And while in theory played under the same rules, GP scores do not come with the same public element, sense of club oversight, and with normally, at least some fee, to submit one.
In the US, mulligans, gimmes, free drops, which one does hope dont happen incompetitions, certainly undermines the value of GP scores.......

This is typical of the way you misdirect culpability from the dishonest player to the WHS system. Scores returned using mulligans, gimmes, irregular free drops etc do not undermine the value of GP scores. They undermine the integrity of the individual's handicap index. Also since the outcome of not playing to the Rules in this way is a vanity handicap way lower than what it should be, it isn't something to be much concerned about. Such folk are not exactly going to be winning competitions, are they? We need only worry about those who have acquired a higher handicap than it should be and that is achieved only by falsification of one kind or another.

 

[rulie]

This is typical of the way you misdirect culpability from the dishonest player to the WHS system. Scores returned using mulligans, gimmes, irregular free drops etc do not undermine the value of GP scores. They undermine the integrity of the individual's handicap index. Also since the outcome of not playing to the Rules in this way is a vanity handicap way lower than what it should be, it isn't something to be much concerned about. Such folk are not exactly going to be winning competitions, are they? We need only worry about those who have acquired a higher handicap than it should be and that is achieved only by falsification of one kind or another.

I will go further on this and suggest that those behaviours (mulligans, gimmes, free drops) are characteristics of golfers that don't have or maintain a WHS handicap. It is faulty to assign those behaviours to all golfers.
Certainly, those are not characteristics of any golfers that I play with.

 

[doublebogey7]

So things are moving behind the scenes, and R&A bypassing the previously only 4 yearly reviews and modifications to WHS. Update in March or April for the coming season.
From our good friends in Mauritious and NCG.
So hold your powder dry, and lets see if they really solve some of the issues - acknowledging there are problems and corrective actions needed is at least a positive step and to be applauded. A big move from the 'everything is fine, nothing to see here, no issue, we will review again in 3 years' mantra.

Not a cat in hells chance, for a start EG hace said publicly in the last few days that rthere will be no changes this year. Secondly for Assocaitions to implement such changes they would require at the very least six months notice, in order to make the neccesary system changes and to give them time to provide updates to clubs.

 

[doublebogey7]

Something had to give. They could turn a blind eye, and maybe didnt really care too much, about clubs going off piste with their own solution, but an association going rogue meant they couldnt pretend all was fine and dandy any longer.

You can't be serious in suggesting that the R&A/USGA are going to change their plans for the sake of an Association with 17 member.

 

[doublebogey7]

Not as I understand it. Its only from this year, and is legal under WHS, but fundamentally reveals, that like EG valuing competition scores more highly than GP ones for its competitions, Ireland doesnt trust handicaps for entry to its either and so is applying a reduction to handicaps according to previous results in those competitions, to determine entry eligibility now. Mauritius just went too offline, and so are pausing their rule until, presumably, the R&A legalises it or solves the problem of GP scores some other way that also satisfies Mauritius but legalises it for everyone.

So clubs doing their own little fixes. Country associations doing their own thing. For a one world system, it doesnt give an image of buy-in and trust in WHS.

Who beyond the tiniest of tiniest associations are doing their own thing?

 

[doublebogey7]

While there isnt the direct wording, there are at least two clear references, one attributed to the R&A, the other to M Slumbers. So no detail, nor how extensive or large the change. That seems under wraps until the official reveal. But that there is a 2025 change has solid grounds. EG etc not knowing about it, does not contradict that.

Can you please post a link to these clear references?