Handicap manipulation - how to address

[Arthur Wedge]

Can a score be acceptable for handicap if there's lift, clean and place in the rough (eg in the middle of winter)?

I believe they can if it’s just certain area and the model local rule is in place

But don’t think you can have the whole course

 

[nickjdavis]

There was no such requirement in the CONGU Manual.
But of course clubs may do this under WHS also.

I never said there was a requirement...just that a manual checking of the card, before it hit a players handicap record was, in my experience, a common practice.

Yes they may do this under WHS....but it is now a whole lot more difficult due to the volume, and the score is going to have an effect on a players index the moment it is submitted....long before a committee member might choose to do a review.

 

[wjemather]

Can a score be acceptable for handicap if there's lift, clean and place in the rough (eg in the middle of winter)?

For scores to be acceptable for handicapping, the following local rules are permitted but only when needed:
MLR - E2 (lift, clean and REPLACE) anywhere in the General Area (should be restricted to only those areas where it is actually needed).
MLR - E3 (preferred lies) only in areas cut to fairway height or less, and with the relief area limited to 6 inches.

 

[wjemather]

I never said there was a requirement...just that a manual checking of the card, before it hit a players handicap record was, in my experience, a common practice.

Yes they may do this under WHS....but it is now a whole lot more difficult due to the volume, and the score is going to have an effect on a players index the moment it is submitted....long before a committee member might choose to do a review.

What did this checking entail and did it serve any useful purpose, particularly with regards to manipulation?

 

[Deleted member 36735]

I believe they can if it’s just certain area and the model local rule is in place

But don’t think you can have the whole course

For scores to be acceptable for handicapping, the following local rules are permitted but only when needed:
MLR - E2 (lift, clean and REPLACE) anywhere in the General Area (should be restricted to only those areas where it is actually needed).

Interesting, thanks both.

 

[rulefan]

I never said there was a requirement...just that a manual checking of the card, before it hit a players handicap record was, in my experience, a common practice.

Not in my experience when involved in EG.

 

[nickjdavis]

What did this checking entail and did it serve any useful purpose, particularly with regards to manipulation?

Well for a start it ensured that there was a corresponding pre-registered intent to submit a score and that a player hadn't just decided to throw a particularly good/bad score in the box for consideration.

Over a period of time the committee could see who was submitting cards, how frequently, get an idea of the scores that were being submitted, get a feel for any anomalies....see if the submissions might be driving handicaps upwards/downwards ahead of a particular competition.

These manual checking processes were pretty much all that the committee had at their disposal in order to do what they could to ensure that players handicaps were representative of their ability.

 

[nickjdavis]

Not in my experience when involved in EG.

Well...I guess we all have different experiences on which we base our viewpoints.

Neither experience is more valid than the other.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Not in my experience when involved in EG.

So when someone entered a supplementary card before WHS no one checked it ?

How did it get onto the HC record

 

[D-S]

Can a score be acceptable for handicap if there's lift, clean and place in the rough (eg in the middle of winter)?

Nope, unless it’s lift, clean and replace.

 

[rulefan]

Well...I guess we all have different experiences on which we base our viewpoints.

Neither experience is more valid than the other.

True. But I was in the centre of UHS management.

 

[D-S]

And who knows what the actual figures are and perhaps more importantly, what are the most common 'loopholes' that are being used.

Incidentally, I am puzzled by your comment about not pre-registering under UHS. How would that get past any h'cap c'ee?

I was merely listing the all too common offences that occur now under WHS GP scores.
Previously the fact that you had to go into the Pro Shop and pre register and you knew that you had to put the completed card in the box, just like a comp, and that it would be entered manually and be seen by a member of the committee might or might not have meant that it was used by people to manipulate handicaps but I can’t recall much abuse of the Supplementary Score system or needing to take any action.
We now have regular issues which require education, investigation and sanctions.
We used to get a handful of Supplementary Cards per week during the season and now get well over a hundred. We are currently in December and January getting 30 plus per week.
As I have mentioned last week we have found that someone had created a scorecard after dark, entered it at 8pm and had it attested early the following morning. This is now under investigation, this would been almost impossible to do with a Supplementary Score.

 

[rulefan]

So when someone entered a supplementary card before WHS no one checked it ?

How did it get onto the HC record

PSI input

 

[D-S]

True. But I was in the centre of UHS management.

Did you experience many issues, as described with GP apps, with Supplementary cards? Did a lot of cards get rejected due to format issues, non preregistration, attester not present or suspected handicap manipulation?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

PSI input

What if the PSI input wasn’t on for GP cards like a number of clubs did

And even with PSI on the old Supplementary cards someone still had to ok it before it was sent to Congu/CDH etv

 

[rulefan]

Did you experience many issues, as described with GP apps, with Supplementary cards? Did a lot of cards get rejected due to format issues, non preregistration, attester not present or suspected handicap manipulation?

I don't think apps were around at the time. But UHS never came up as a problem at committee meetings or elsewhere.

 

[wjemather]

Well for a start it ensured that there was a corresponding pre-registered intent to submit a score and that a player hadn't just decided to throw a particularly good/bad score in the box for consideration.

Over a period of time the committee could see who was submitting cards, how frequently, get an idea of the scores that were being submitted, get a feel for any anomalies....see if the submissions might be driving handicaps upwards/downwards ahead of a particular competition.

These manual checking processes were pretty much all that the committee had at their disposal in order to do what they could to ensure that players handicaps were representative of their ability.

So nothing that isn't done now, only it relied on the memory & intuition of the committee?

 

[rulefan]

What if the PSI input wasn’t on for GP cards like a number of clubs did

And even with PSI on the old Supplementary cards someone still had to ok it before it was sent to Congu/CDH etv

I always thought it odd if clubs paid for PSI and didn't use it. Not that sure there were many of them.

Why would they (who?) have to ok it? It wasn't a requirement.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I always thought it odd if clubs paid for PSI and didn't use it. Not that sure there were many of them.

Why would they have to ok it? It wasn't a requirement.

We did use a PSI for comp entry scores

And even then those scores needed checking before they went to Congo did they not

 

[wjemather]

Clicking a button to "authorise" scores for upload didn't require any "checking".