Handicap manipulation - how to address

[rulefan]

Thought the first couple of pages summed it up

People will always manipulate their HC

The EG App has allowed that to be done a touch easier

And clubs will continue to try their best to combat it

What is it that the EG app does or doesn't do that makes it easier than other apps? What others have deficiencies that make cheating easier?
My impression is that apps in general are more of a problem than PSI terminals. Am I right?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

What is it that the EG app does or doesn't do that makes it easier than other apps? What others have deficiencies that make cheating easier?
My impression is that apps in general are more of a problem than PSI terminals. Am I right?

Could prob say all APPs in that respect

It’s very easy for people to go to any course and fabricate a card

With others like IG etc you can only do it at your home course and then it’s easier for HC committees to check

 

[rulefan]

Could prob say all APPs in that respect

It’s very easy for people to go to any course and fabricate a card

But you can fabricate scores with cards.
What is it about apps that make them different?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

But you can fabricate scores with cards.
What is it about apps that make them different?

You don’t even have to walk into the golf club

You can do it from your car

With a card someone needs to authenticate it after it’s been signed by two people

EG app - a mate can sort it out for you

 

[nickjdavis]

But you can fabricate scores with cards.
What is it about apps that make them different?

Pre WHS, the cards you filled in as a supplementary score would not be entered into your handicap record without some sort of check from a person. That person would see all of the cards coming through and would start to notice patterns and unusual scores, if he/she was half awake....just like that typist in Saving Private Ryan suddenly noticed she was writing multiple letters to the same Mrs Ryan.

The apps have made it so much easier to submit a higher volume of cards in a short space of time and the majority of volunteer based handicap committees simply do not have the resources to check everything. Hence attempts at manipulation are more likely to pass undetected.

Yes the fabricated scores on card or on an app are the same thing...the app just makes it so much easier for a miscreant golfer to achieve the desired end result...and despite the efforts of the authorities to introduce things like geo-location, there are enough gaps, that those of such a mind can easily manipulate their scores and handicap if they so wish....without even visiting a golf course, as I demonstrated some time back, by creating a fictional friend who was an iPlay golfer who could act as my marker when I played a local golf course about half a mile from my home, without leaving the comfort of my sofa.

There is nothing wrong with the basic WHS itself...it is just the mechanics that allow the volume of scores to be submitted that is the issue. It would help a great deal if there was a restriction on the frequency that GP scores could be submitted (e.g. go back to the old 1 per week) and there was a tweak to the soft/hard caps....lower them to 2 and 4 respectively....maybe even set the low index to the lowest index from the past 18 months.

 

[Slab]

I'm picturing mini traveller communities parked up at the main gates of clubhouses around the country on Saturday lunchtimes covertly punching in a GP score of 92 before heading off to argos to haggle for a full price refund for something they bought in the sales

The cads

 

[clubchamp98]

Was the UHS Universal?

Yes it was.
I was off 5 in the UK and off 5 in the rest of the World.

 

[wjemather]

It's easy enough to put a fictional markers signature on a physical scorecard containing fictional hole scores, without having played; and no committee would be able to verify the authenticity of the scores, the signature or whether the round was even played, any more than they can with apps.
If anything, it's easier than using an app, because you don't have to use an app or find a collaborator/create a second account.

 

[rulefan]

With a card someone needs to authenticate it after it’s been signed by two people

Apart from the player and marker, who else?

 

[rulefan]

Pre WHS, the cards you filled in as a supplementary score would not be entered into your handicap record without some sort of check from a person.

What happened to the marker or are they not a person?

 

[rulefan]

Pre WHS, the cards you filled in as a supplementary score would not be entered into your handicap record without some sort of check from a person. That person would see all of the cards coming through and would start to notice patterns and unusual scores, if he/she was half awake....just like that typist in Saving Private Ryan suddenly noticed she was writing multiple letters to the same Mrs Ryan.

The apps have made it so much easier to submit a higher volume of cards in a short space of time and the majority of volunteer based handicap committees simply do not have the resources to check everything. Hence attempts at manipulation are more likely to pass undetected.

Yes the fabricated scores on card or on an app are the same thing...the app just makes it so much easier for a miscreant golfer to achieve the desired end result...and despite the efforts of the authorities to introduce things like geo-location, there are enough gaps, that those of such a mind can easily manipulate their scores and handicap if they so wish....without even visiting a golf course, as I demonstrated some time back, by creating a fictional friend who was an iPlay golfer who could act as my marker when I played a local golf course about half a mile from my home, without leaving the comfort of my sofa.

There is nothing wrong with the basic WHS itself...it is just the mechanics that allow the volume of scores to be submitted that is the issue. It would help a great deal if there was a restriction on the frequency that GP scores could be submitted (e.g. go back to the old 1 per week) and there was a tweak to the soft/hard caps....lower them to 2 and 4 respectively....maybe even set the low index to the lowest index from the past 18 months.

I understand the point about the volume of GP scores but prior to the introduction of WHS, during my time on the relevant EG committee, CONGU (incl EG) were encouraging clubs to use more supplementary scores.

 

[D-S]

Perhaps pre WHS there were many people submitting supplementary scores where the marker was not present or without pre registering in the Pro Shop or from match play rounds or from team competitions or just writing them out in the car park and scrawling something as the marker’s signature or putting in lots of higher scores than their competition ones - who knows? However we do now know that this is the case and the volume of GP scores versus Supplementary scores mean that even if the proportion of ‘wrong scores’ is the same then the amount of cheating/manipulation is certainly greater.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Apart from the player and marker, who else?

Who enters the paper score card onto the system ?

 

[rulefan]

Perhaps pre WHS there were many people submitting supplementary scores where the marker was not present or without pre registering in the Pro Shop or from match play rounds or from team competitions or just writing them out in the car park and scrawling something as the marker’s signature or putting in lots of higher scores than their competition ones - who knows? However we do now know that this is the case and the volume of GP scores versus Supplementary scores mean that even if the proportion of ‘wrong scores’ is the same then the amount of cheating/manipulation is certainly greater.

And who knows what the actual figures are and perhaps more importantly, what are the most common 'loopholes' that are being used.

Incidentally, I am puzzled by your comment about not pre-registering under UHS. How would that get past any h'cap c'ee?

 

[nickjdavis]

What happened to the marker or are they not a person?

Of course they are a person, in the old days of submitting supplementary cards you had two levels of checking....your marker and the committee member who processed your card. However the score would still not enter your record until the committee member processed the card physically (I'm assuming here that clubs had rules, like mine did, that card had to physically be returned for verification, even if the scores were entered into a PSI terminal).

I understand the point about the volume of GP scores but prior to the introduction of WHS, during my time on the relevant EG committee, CONGU (incl EG) were encouraging clubs to use more supplementary scores.

Indeed they were....but even so, my experience is that players on the whole didnt really take much notice and change their habits...those who submitted supplementaries regularly, continued to do so, those who didint...pretty much continued not to. Even with the urging of the authorities for players to submit more supplementaries, the volume of cards submitted pre November 2020 was utterly insignificant compared to the number that are submitted nowadays.

At my club we might have got 20-25 supplementaries a week pre WHS. I can see just looking at the 7 weeks leading up to November 20th last year, we recieved around 100 GP scores per week. In the peak of the summer months (May to September) we were getting around 160-170 GP scores per week.

 

[Colin L]

Same system ?
93%
95%

When I went to school those percentages were different.....

but you believe what the Authorities tell you.....

Like a politician, you avoid the question. The percentages have nothing to do with the handicapping system. They apply only to a particular competition and are for the sole purpose of determining winners. They have no effect on the scores put in for handicap index recalculation whether the competition is in Scotland or Australia

Do let me know if you don’t understand. I’m sure I could help you further.

 

[wjemather]

I get the impression that some are expecting a lot more from "checking" than has ever been done by anyone, is required, or is even possible.

 

[rulefan]

Of course they are a person, in the old days of submitting supplementary cards you had two levels of checking....your marker and the committee member who processed your card. However the score would still not enter your record until the committee member processed the card physically (I'm assuming here that clubs had rules, like mine did, that card had to physically be returned for verification, even if the scores were entered into a PSI terminal).

There was no such requirement in the CONGU Manual.
But of course clubs may do this under WHS also.

 

[Deleted member 36735]

Can a score be acceptable for handicap if there's lift, clean and place in the rough (eg in the middle of winter)?

 

[rosecott]

Same system ?
93%
95%

When I went to school those percentages were different.....

but you believe what the Authorities tell you.....

Do you really not understand that those percentages only have relevance in deciding how players are placed in a competition?

They do not affect the calculation or re-calculation of Handicap Index.