Handicap manipulation - how to address

[doublebogey7]

Failed irony, judging by the response.

QA

I am aware that its maths, and nothing nefarious. I am saying that the maths is flawed to adjust my handicap so much so quickly. My game had not changed. WHS is just too choppy. It is trying to achieve a precision of form that it cannot be achieved. My rounds should just have been treated as noise, and not adjusted my handicap more than a couple of decimal points.
Moving it so much so quickly, gives an unfair advantage to those who are temporarily on the upper end of the control limits for their skill.
UHS was tighter. It made for better club competition for handicap golfers.
So signigicant fix needs to be implemented urgently, and should be made before another season starts. EG needs a kick up the.

 

[clubchamp98]

In what way is a committee "by-passed" that makes it any easier to manipulate a handicap by putting in false scores than pre-WHS? Attested falsified scores on a bit of card are no different from attested falsified scores submitted through an app. Both simply comprise 18 numbers. A dodgy number is a dodgy number whether going straight into a database or from a bit of paper into the database with no discernible difference between them. Besides, entering handicapping scores, whether competition or supplementary ones, electronically pre-dates WHS. And, it is a great deal easier to scrutinise scores online than on bits of card. "They" did not not create a system in order to by-pass committees; the system no more bypasses them than did its predecessor.

My point is under Supplementary cards anyone putting 10 cards in two weeks would definitely be under scrutiny.
As that almost never happened.

Now that’s considered ok and positively encouraged on an app.
WHS isn’t bad it’s GP cards that’s the problem imo it’s wide open to abuse.


I never mentioned 18 holes on a card ?
Gross scores are all that counts.

 

[Swango1980]

There was a time when to be a pro you only had to get to a low of 8. I believe it is 5 now. Pros are not necessarily scratch players.

Think Ian Pulter had a handicap of 4 when he turned pro?

Once becoming pro, do professional golfers actually have to keep playing to at least 4 to remain being a professional? I don't think so. I know some professionals focus on playing golf (like the ones we see on TV), some focus primarily on teaching golf and some focus primarily in running a business (golf pro shop).

I'd say most golf professionals are much worse than scratch. When I was playing off about 10, I went out on my own once and met with the club pro. We played a bit of scratch match play on the back 9 and I beat him. I did play well, and maybe he wasn't on his very best form. But, you could tell he wasn't anywhere near the level of golfer of some of the low handicap amateurs I've played with (handicaps under 5 say). I'm sure he is very knowledgeable technically and could be a good teacher, while not being able to play to a mega high level. Whereas some top amateurs can play brilliantly, but its natural and they probably don't know half the things they are doing well, and certainly would struggle to teach other amateurs who have all sorts of issues.

 

[Colin L]

My point is under Supplementary cards anyone putting 10 cards in two weeks would definitely be under scrutiny.
As that almost never happened.

Now that’s considered ok and positively encouraged on an app.
WHS isn’t bad it’s GP cards that’s the problem imo it’s wide open to abuse.

Quantity doesn't make it more open to abuse than whatever system preceded it. It's the number of dishonest players around that matters.

 

[Colin L]

That's page 82 now, folks. Waken me up when you reach page 100.

 

[jim8flog]

That's page 82 now, folks. Waken me up when you reach page 100.

some people just do not have the staying power these days

 

[BTatHome]

I don't take that much notice of the maths involved in handicap calculations but given you are averaging over 8 cards, surely dropping one score isn't gonna change that much in your handicap. I don't get what range of values you need to move from 18 to 19 to 20 in just three cards.

.... alternatively maybe it's just because my handicap bounces around high 5's and low 6's depending on what good scores are being used in my 8 cards.

 

[Colin L]

some people just do not have the staying power these days

I know, I know. It's an age thing.

 

[rulefan]

It's an age thing.

Did you remember that or did someone just tell you?

 

[badgergm]

A player's handicap isn't reviewed on the basis of one tie won but on a pattern of winning ties and competitions and taking into account matters like who they were defeating and by how much.

It would be very useful if all formal match play results (doesn’t have to be hole by hole scores) were recorded on the handicap system. Club competitions and inter club matches.

Could be used in reviews in various ways. A rare GP score? Ah, 3 days before an important match which caused a 1 shot increase.

Whilst vaguely on that topic, the current support for reviews provided by WHS is inadequate. Should be able to do all sorts of things - graphs for examples, with trend lines. Have to download to Excel currently. The report which recommends those for review is very simplistic - just looks for no of exceptional scores really. In this age of AI, s/w shpuld be analysing all the data (e.g. GP versus comp), suspicious patterns, etc and providing much more sophisticated recommendations.

 

[Colin L]

Did you remember that or did someone just tell you?

Tell me what?

 

[D-S]

It would be very useful if all formal match play results (doesn’t have to be hole by hole scores) were recorded on the handicap system. Club competitions and inter club matches.

Could be used in reviews in various ways. A rare GP score? Ah, 3 days before an important match which caused a 1 shot increase.

Whilst vaguely on that topic, the current support for reviews provided by WHS is inadequate. Should be able to do all sorts of things - graphs for examples, with trend lines. Have to download to Excel currently. The report which recommends those for review is very simplistic - just looks for no of exceptional scores really. In this age of AI, s/w shpuld be analysing all the data (e.g. GP versus comp), suspicious patterns, etc and providing much more sophisticated recommendations.

I agree.
The GP vs Competition score report needs to be better too, so that trends can be established. If nothing else you should be able to set a report for players who have x scores over y period who have a z or more differential between the types of scores. That would be a good initial bluntish tool to spot
possible manipulation.

 

[IanM]

I agree.
The GP vs Competition score report needs to be better too, so that trends can be established. If nothing else you should be able to set a report for players who have x scores over y period who have a z or more differential between the types of scores. That would be a good initial bluntish tool to spot
possible manipulation.

I wonder if there's a report showing which clubs never open up reports? (if you see what I mean)

 

[jim8flog]

Think Ian Pulter had a handicap of 4 when he turned pro?

Once becoming pro, do professional golfers actually have to keep playing to at least 4 to remain being a professional? I don't think so. I know some professionals focus on playing golf (like the ones we see on TV), some focus primarily on teaching golf and some focus primarily in running a business (golf pro shop).

I'd say most golf professionals are much worse than scratch. When I was playing off about 10, I went out on my own once and met with the club pro. We played a bit of scratch match play on the back 9 and I beat him. I did play well, and maybe he wasn't on his very best form. But, you could tell he wasn't anywhere near the level of golfer of some of the low handicap amateurs I've played with (handicaps under 5 say). I'm sure he is very knowledgeable technically and could be a good teacher, while not being able to play to a mega high level. Whereas some top amateurs can play brilliantly, but its natural and they probably don't know half the things they are doing well, and certainly would struggle to teach other amateurs who have all sorts of issues.

Pre WHS pros no longer had handicaps

Post WHS having a handicap is optional (although where I play none took up the option)

 

[D-S]

I wonder if there's a report showing which clubs never open up reports? (if you see what I mean)

Unfortunately there isn't, although I could give you a list of those that would probably figure on such a report - oddly its not necessarily the ones that you would guess.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Pre WHS pros no longer had handicaps

Post WHS having a handicap is optional (although where I play none took up the option)

We have two pros who work at the club. Only one has a handicap post WHS and it is +1.5.
We have another young chap who was a previous member and did his training under our pro.
He came back as a member, though still a pro, and has a handicap of +1.6.

 

[D-S]

I have never quite understood why ’normal’ club pros and assistants can’t play typically in amateur competitions.
I understand if they make a large part of their income from playing golf (i.e. making your livelihood from playing the game), but why should making almost all your money from running a shop and teaching golf stop you from playing amateur golf.
If you are a Golf Director or a Senior Golf Administator or a Club Manager or a Golf retailer you can play amateur golf even though your income comes from golf, but for just giving the odd lesson or, maybe for a small minority, winning a few hundred pounds (significantly less than ‘professional amateurs’) in the occasional local PGA tournament then you are banned from playing normal competitive golf. There are very few PGA Pros in our County who would make it into the County team so it’s not that they would just clean up and for handicap tournaments, their handicap will reflect their ability and would not give them any advantage..

 

[Swango1980]

I have never quite understood why ’normal’ club pros and assistants can’t play typically in amateur competitions.
I understand if they make a large part of their income from playing golf (i.e. making your livelihood from playing the game), but why should making almost all your money from running a shop and teaching golf stop you from playing amateur golf.
If you are a Golf Director or a Senior Golf Administator or a Club Manager or a Golf retailer you can play amateur golf even though your income comes from golf, but for just giving the odd lesson or, maybe for a small minority, winning a few hundred pounds (significantly less than ‘professional amateurs’) in the occasional local PGA tournament then you are banned from playing normal competitive golf. There are very few PGA Pros in our County who would make it into the County team so it’s not that they would just clean up and for handicap tournaments, their handicap will reflect their ability and would not give them any advantage..

I was under the impression a professional could play in an Amateur competition if the Committee are aware of it and allow it? I'm pretty sure I've heard of really good golfers playing in comps at other local clubs, and when talking about them, members have said they are the Club Pro.

That being said, I'm not so sure it would be appropriate for them to enter the Club Championship in a scratch competition? Or at least, the Committee may be more reluctant to allow it.

 

[rulie]

I was under the impression a professional could play in an Amateur competition if the Committee are aware of it and allow it? I'm pretty sure I've heard of really good golfers playing in comps at other local clubs, and when talking about them, members have said they are the Club Pro.

That being said, I'm not so sure it would be appropriate for them to enter the Club Championship in a scratch competition? Or at least, the Committee may be more reluctant to allow it.

The Committee in charge at the club can set the conditions of entry, such as, "must be an amateur member of the club". Two things there, "amateur" and "member".

 

[D-S]

I was under the impression a professional could play in an Amateur competition if the Committee are aware of it and allow it? I'm pretty sure I've heard of really good golfers playing in comps at other local clubs, and when talking about them, members have said they are the Club Pro.

That being said, I'm not so sure it would be appropriate for them to enter the Club Championship in a scratch competition? Or at least, the Committee may be more reluctant to allow it.

Most club competition C of Cs do not allow Pros to enter. Same with Opens, Team Leagues etc. Pros can’t also represent their Counties or enter most/all elite amateur competitions. All because they spend their lives selling Mars Bars and teaching golf.
As I mentioned above ‘proper’ professional golfers who make most of their living through prize money should not be playing, but people who hardly ever play in ‘proper’ golf tournaments and make less money from playing golf than a lot of amateurs being banned from amateur golf seems odd.