Handicap manipulation - how to address

[nickjdavis]

For those demanding clear data, in a sense your are closing your mind to the discussion. Even if a club did analysis you would reject it as only one club. If someone posts an example from a compeition you will dismiss it as just one data point (with reason). The only sources of big data are the golf associations. Golf Australia published this analysis after nine months. We are 4 years into WHS. Where is a similar analysis from EG ? Even without data, the concerns and criticisms of WHS are fair to make (even based on anecdote and limited data in clubs) - it is up to the authorities to publish the meta data correcting an incorrect golfer impression if that is the case, or acknowledging that the complaints have grounds if that is the case. So as long as there is no big data, defenders of WHS can point to the fact that there is no evidence. If those in possession of the data wont publish it, they too are technical correct to state there is no evidence of a non level playing field, but it is also disingenuous. (it is like the WHO stating 5 years ago in the early months of the pandemic that was no evidence masks protected from Covid - a true statement taken baldly. There were no peer reviewed studies into the matter, of course, as the pandemic was only starting. But they knew very will masks were protective, but due to the lack of supply at the time, didnt want to syphon the limited supply towards the public, but retain it for healthcare workers. A justified slight of hand).

No I dont think we are.

Many of us recognise that there are areas where the WHS can be tweaked/improve...especially in the area of the frequency of score admissions being an easy way by which a player might try to drive their handicap in a particular direction. I've previously given my own views as to tweaks that might be made, on several occasions.

However....there are many of us who have access to certain, albeit limited data (e.g. our own club records) who have looked at that data and, although we see a shift in emphasis from low to high, in many cases that has simply been a balancing of a situation that was slightly unbalanced (in favour of lower handicappers) in the past. Many of us are not seeing a raft of 45+ point scores winning competitions, we are not seeing 30+ handicappers sweeping all before them. However, those are simply individual snapshots and I don't for one minute believe it (my own analysis) is (or expect others to accept it as) representative of all golf clubs in the UK, let alone worldwide. It is just a snapshot. The more snapshots we have, from either end of the spectrum the better the overall picture will be.

So when someone says that the WHS is fundamentally broken and everyone is talking about how bad it is, all we really want is to see some alternative comparative data that supports said positions. An absence of such data doesn't mean that the position is wrong, but if the authorities wont publish said data, then it needs to come from the various "antagonists" that are saying the system is broken...rhetoric and anecdote simply isn't enough.

As ever, when there are two positions in an argument, more often than not the "truth" lies somewhere in the middle, it may be biased towards one end or the other, but it is rarely as "extreme" as made out by either side of the argument.

And just on Aus, I see that since the 1st of Jan they have reduced further (though slightly) the multiplier for singles comps from 0.93 to 0.928512.

If the issues in Australia are as bad as what @AussieKB intimates, this surely is nothing more than putting a sticking plaster over a hole in the bottom of the Titanic?

 

[wjemather]

OK, as expected.

???

And just on Aus, I see that since the 1st of Jan they have reduced further (though slightly) the multiplier for singles comps from 0.93 to 0.928512.

Not quite.
See https://www.golf.org.au/2025-handicapping-changes-v2/.

 

[jim8flog]

When did the maximum handicap increase above 28?

2018

 

[Colin L]

I particularly liked this bit in the Golf Australia information:

These reforms have been designed using extensive statistical analyses performed on hundreds of millions of scores returned globally since the introduction of the World Handicap System in 2020. This research and development continues the commitment of golf’s governing bodies to the ongoing enhancement of our handicapping services, which we recognize are central to the enjoyment of golfers globally.

 

[Crow]

And just on Aus, I see that since the 1st of Jan they have reduced further (though slightly) the multiplier for singles comps from 0.93 to 0.928512.

They did wrong there, IMHO it should have been 0.928509, that would have satisfied the complainers.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

When did the maximum handicap increase above 28?

My club specifies a maximum handicap allowance of 28 for all gents competitions - for whatever reason.

 

[Colin L]

My club specifies a maximum handicap allowance of 28 for all gents competitions - for whatever reason.

Any competitions for the over 28s?

 

[rulefan]

My club specifies a maximum handicap allowance of 28 for all gents competitions - for whatever reason.

Is that Playing Handicap (ie for competition result purposes)?
Or Index or Course Handicap for handicapping purposes. If the latter, are all over 28s GP scores?

 

[D-S]

My club specifies a maximum handicap allowance of 28 for all gents competitions - for whatever reason.

Can’t see a reason why you shouldn’t have any men’s comps available for those over 28 HI or CH. Seems a bit exclusive for beginners or those with declining ability. They don’t need to be competing for the same prize as others, they can be totally separate comps or divisions - but none at all?

 

[AussieKB]

In that report :-

'We will continue to assess club and golfer feedback as we monitor the impact of consistency more broadly on equity in handicap competitions and review these settings periodically.'

Have yet to meet an Official of Golf WA and I know two for over 25 years, who have ever asked for feedback, one is very arrogant and thinks he knows everything about golf.

Cannot recall once being able to fill in a report/survey for OZ Golf.

Just another change to OZ HS to bring us in line with whose System ? surely not the World System.

Surely they only needed to make a change to the old System to allow higher handicaps to out more than point one for bad scores.

The phrase 'use a sledgehammer to crack a nut' comes to mind.

Now I think it is all about money, they have invested too much to back out now, it would show what a lot of people think about how Golf is run by people who think they know what is best for us.

 

[Colin L]

That's an interesting criterion. A worldwide system of handicapping which has been developed and revised using analysis of masses of scores is to be judged wanting on the basis of how many Golf Australia officials one Australian knows.

Doesn't quite work for me.

 

[AussieKB]

Yep...cherry pick all you like, we each have our own opinions........but get that sledgehammer ready.

 

[Dunesman]

Rather a Catch 22, bureaucratic short circuit then with both some here and EG.

Golfers : there is a problem with WHS
WHS : we have no evidence that there is. Have you data to backup your claim ?
Golfers : No, you have the data.
WHS : Then there is no basis to your claim. There is therefore no problem.
Golfers : have you analysed the data EG ?
WHS : you have presented no evidence why we should. Should you present data that suggests we should, we will share the data that you would need to substantiate your claim.
Golfers : but without the data, how can we backup the grass roots experience of English golfers ?
WHS : Quite. You cannot therefore backup your claim. Therefore, as you see, there is no problem.

 

[Slab]

Rather a Catch 22, bureaucratic short circuit then with both some here and EG.

Golfers : there is a problem with WHS
WHS : we have no evidence that there is. Have you data to backup your claim ?
Golfers : No, you have the data.
WHS : Then there is no basis to your claim. There is therefore no problem.
Golfers : have you analysed the data EG ?
WHS : you have presented no evidence why we should. Should you present data that suggests we should, we will share the data that you would need to substantiate your claim.
Golfers : but without the data, how can we backup the grass roots experience of English golfers ?
WHS : Quite. You cannot therefore backup your claim. Therefore, as you see, there is no problem.

Just for giggles:

Golfers : there is a problem with WHS
WHS : what’s that then ?
Golfers : a player with a handicap higher than mine got a nett score/pts tally, I can’t achieve
WHS : And?
Golfers: well that’s not on really. I need to know I ‘could’ win each time I enter
WHS: Just you or all the entrants?
Golfers: just us with a h/cap <5
WHS : I see, what do you suggest?
Golfers: lower the PH % please, and max handicaps at 18
WHS : but if what you say is accurate, what about all the other players off other handicaps that also can’t achieve xx pts, how will that help them?
Golfers: …..

 

[IanM]

There's plenty of truth in #1413 and #1414 if you are prepared to think about it... therein lies the problem!

 

[clubchamp98]

There's plenty of truth in #1413 and #1414 if you are prepared to think about it... therein lies the problem!

The problem is they Havnt showed us anything that would change our mind.?

Goes for both sides imo.

 

[Deleted member 35927]

The problem is they Havnt showed us anything that would change our mind.?

Goes for both sides imo.

Are there sides ? I don't even know what the argument is about

 

[clubchamp98]

Are there sides ? I don't even know what the argument is about

Yes it’s like a bar fight in a western.

White hat v black hat.
Not sure who’s who though

 

[Slab]

Yes it’s like a bar fight in a western.

White hat v black hat.
Not sure who’s who though

Now I'm just thinking cowboys and bandits! how apt

 

[rulie]

Yes it’s like a bar fight in a western.

White hat v black hat.
Not sure who’s who though

Glad somebody remembers that! Sometimes our referee's dress code says black hats; I always say that I would much prefer a white hat - two reasons > good guys and black is too hot.