Val
Ryder Cup Winner
My god, your pleasant
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Groove sharpener ?
- Thread starter sydney greenstreet
- Start date
My god, your pleasant
At the end of the day it comes down to individual conscience. If you are happy to use one of these tools and accept that the chances are the tolerances will be broken as they can't be used with any degree of accuracy then fine. It breaks a rule of golf but if your happy to do so then there s little that can be done. Personally I prefer my kit to be within the limits or why not just go out and bash one of the old non-conforming drivers and be done. I havetobe honest and say if my grooves were in that bad a state I wouldn't even trust a pro to repair it with the tolerances and would just get a new wedge. I prefer to adhere to the rules but maybe it's just me
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
So it sounds like you all choose which rules to follow and which to not follow......
The construction as well as size of all aspects of a golf club are governed by the rules. In comparison to kicking the ball out of the rough, yes, it isn't the same. But the principle is. And that's what matters.
If you can't see that then it comes back to a previous thread and a post I made on there - You play Golf but you're not a Golfer.
DappaDonDave
Journeyman Pro
Agreed.
Like I play football but I'm not a footballer, I'm not a artist but I draw, I'm not a rapper but I spit mean flow and got mad grime yo (maybe not the last one)
I play golf for a sport...I follow the spirit of the game, but do not panda to its every whim and minute detail. To do that all day would be boring as hell.
If we ever play, measure my grooves..."'llow it fam" as I heard a kid say in a movie at the weekend
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
I wouldn't need to - I would expect someone who follows the Spirit of the Game to follow the Rules too....
Region3
Ryder Cup Winner
I've never used one, but I'd assume that the width of the cutting part isn't wider than the allowable width for grooves and that the shoulder on the tool will not allow you to go deeper than the allowable limit.
So in the hands of someone skilled I'm sure they can be used without rendering the clubs illegal for use.
I actually toyed with the idea of trying one a while ago, but after watching a video on Youtube of how to use one properly I decided I'd rather buy a new wedge because it was too much like hard work.
So in the hands of someone skilled I'm sure they can be used without rendering the clubs illegal for use.
I actually toyed with the idea of trying one a while ago, but after watching a video on Youtube of how to use one properly I decided I'd rather buy a new wedge because it was too much like hard work.
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
Thing is, the current c of c grooves are smaller than previous years box grooves. If any modification to box grooves has to conform to the new c of c grooves, then this sharpening tool needs to put material back on, not take it off.
Even if this wasn't the case, yes, the tool can be made the correct width for the groove, but the operator can always supply a bit of side ways pressure, and widen the groove.
There is no 'spirit of the rules' to me. There are rules of golf, laid down by the appropriate governing body, and they are for all golfers, pro's, or hackers. That way we are all playing the same game. Once we start ignoring certain rules, we are no longer playing golf. It's something similar, but not golf.
Someone who is potentially making his club non conforming might think this rule doesn't matter. I might think that moving my ball out of a divot doesn't matter. Someone else might think calling a 5 a 4 doesn't matter. Where does bending the rules stop, once you start? Pedantic? May be.
Even if this wasn't the case, yes, the tool can be made the correct width for the groove, but the operator can always supply a bit of side ways pressure, and widen the groove.
There is no 'spirit of the rules' to me. There are rules of golf, laid down by the appropriate governing body, and they are for all golfers, pro's, or hackers. That way we are all playing the same game. Once we start ignoring certain rules, we are no longer playing golf. It's something similar, but not golf.
Someone who is potentially making his club non conforming might think this rule doesn't matter. I might think that moving my ball out of a divot doesn't matter. Someone else might think calling a 5 a 4 doesn't matter. Where does bending the rules stop, once you start? Pedantic? May be.
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
No, you aren't.
Under rule 4-3 scratches on the face caused by play do not render a club unfit for play.
One Planer
Global Moderator
:rofl:
My dad brought one when he brought his "umpteenth hand" Ping Eye 2 irons. To be honest, he hasn't used it and I "think" he might have lost it now but I can't see how, by hand, you can sharpen the grooves and stay within a tolerance that only specialist equipment can measure.
I've never brought one and never would. I can see the appeal to club golfers but definatley not for me.
As a secondary thought. "If" they can cause the grooves, once sharpened, to be non-conforming how can this product be legal to sell?
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
The R and A can only approve or not approve golf kit. A groove sharpener is an accessory, not directly involved in the actual playing of the game. Same as a hammer, or a file, or an angle grinder.
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
Interesting debate, pity it has got personal.
Relevant rule on wear and tear and alteration affecting whether club conforms is 4-1(b)
b. Wear and Alteration
A club that conforms with the Rules when new is deemed to conform after wear through normal use. Any part of a club that has been purposely altered is regarded as new and must, in its altered state, conform with the Rules.
The point is surely that, although we can't know for sure unless the grooves are measured, by using one of these things there is at least the possibility that the club no longer conforms.
So it comes down to the individual. If you only play social golf with a bunch of mates and there's no issues that one of you might have a non-conforming wedge or driver or another has a 2-faced chipper ("found it in dad's shed"), then fair go it isn't a big issue. You might also drop a ball in the rough when you lose one and add a stroke , not stricly marking your ball when playing preferred lies, etc and all the other adjustments people make quite reasonably for a friendly game.
But I think if you are playing proper comps then you have to be a bit strict with yourself and not use anything that you think might be illegal.
What annoys me is that I have bought a couple of used wedges and as far as I can see the grooves haven't been sharpened (the edges feel relatively smooth and used and there's no bare metal) but is there any sure way of telling? It has put me off buyng second hand wedges especially if it's from a private seller via an auction site. However do people like Golfbidder or AG or even a local PGA pro check that these things haven't been used before selling these clubs on or is it buyer beware?
I couldn't find any reference to this on the Golfbidder site (by the way some of the examples of fakes on there are scarily good. Really makes you think twice about buying from an unreliable source).
Have GM ever done a feature on this subject? Would be good as they could access the necessary expertise at the R&A for some official insight and maybe get a view from the s/hand retailers
Relevant rule on wear and tear and alteration affecting whether club conforms is 4-1(b)
b. Wear and Alteration
A club that conforms with the Rules when new is deemed to conform after wear through normal use. Any part of a club that has been purposely altered is regarded as new and must, in its altered state, conform with the Rules.
The point is surely that, although we can't know for sure unless the grooves are measured, by using one of these things there is at least the possibility that the club no longer conforms.
So it comes down to the individual. If you only play social golf with a bunch of mates and there's no issues that one of you might have a non-conforming wedge or driver or another has a 2-faced chipper ("found it in dad's shed"), then fair go it isn't a big issue. You might also drop a ball in the rough when you lose one and add a stroke , not stricly marking your ball when playing preferred lies, etc and all the other adjustments people make quite reasonably for a friendly game.
But I think if you are playing proper comps then you have to be a bit strict with yourself and not use anything that you think might be illegal.
What annoys me is that I have bought a couple of used wedges and as far as I can see the grooves haven't been sharpened (the edges feel relatively smooth and used and there's no bare metal) but is there any sure way of telling? It has put me off buyng second hand wedges especially if it's from a private seller via an auction site. However do people like Golfbidder or AG or even a local PGA pro check that these things haven't been used before selling these clubs on or is it buyer beware?
I couldn't find any reference to this on the Golfbidder site (by the way some of the examples of fakes on there are scarily good. Really makes you think twice about buying from an unreliable source).
Have GM ever done a feature on this subject? Would be good as they could access the necessary expertise at the R&A for some official insight and maybe get a view from the s/hand retailers
sydney greenstreet
Journeyman Pro
When i put the Question out there it was more about if the grooves are cleaner with this tool than with either a tee or brush, i did not know they actually cut deeper into a club hence why i will stick to the brush and tee.i was'nt expecting this thread to be so divisive! entertaining though
S
Snelly
Guest
Sorry Murph and everyone else on this thread that is of a similar view but I think yes, pedantic.
The equation of kicking a ball out of the rough or moving your ball from a divot with using a device to clean or sharpen grooves just does not stack up for me.
I fully understand that the latter may contravene a rule but it would need a detailed investigation by an expert to ascertain this and anyway, the benefit given to a player is dubious. A golfer still has to try and hit a decent chip or pitch. The gain in spin or control for 99% of golfers would be very small, almost rendering the argument irrelevant in my view. This is just not worth arguing over.
And to equate it with some of the other rule breaches quoted seems way over the top. Particularly when we consider the intentions of someone undertaking one of these various rule breaches. Removing your ball from a divot is blatently cheating and gives you a massive advantage. It also is a conscious decision to cheat and I would argue that this is again, different to a groove sharpener being used. I would doubt that anyone that uses one is doing so from a starting point of trying to cheat at golf. I would think that people using these are just looking to extend the useful life of their wedges.
I really do understand your point of view and rules are there to be obeyed. That said, I think taking someone to task over groove measurements is nit-picking, even though you are in the right when looking at this as a black and white issue.
Just my view. I know that I am in effect saying that unknowingly breaking one rule is fine and knowingly cheating isn't and against this context I don't have a leg to stand on!
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
I have c of c grooves in my irons and wedges, and they are unbelievably difficult to clean. They are so narrow that a tee peg won't fit in, and so I am using a wire brush. Not ideal, and long term use will dull any edges, and damage the finish. It would be nice to have a tool which is perfectly formed that I could use, that wouldn't remove any metal.
Am I right in thinking that although the new grooves have to meet the requirements in the rule book, that they don't have to be exactly as specified, and can be different if smaller? If so, there is no guarantee that all c of c grooves are the same form, which makes buying a tool dificult, unless one is made by the club manufacturer.
Am I right in thinking that although the new grooves have to meet the requirements in the rule book, that they don't have to be exactly as specified, and can be different if smaller? If so, there is no guarantee that all c of c grooves are the same form, which makes buying a tool dificult, unless one is made by the club manufacturer.
I've been reading this thread with interest and amusement. I'm a toolmaker by trade and have been machining metals for the best part of 33 years, and have had my own company (sub contract machining) for the past 19 years, so I feel well qualified to comment.
The first point is the question of 'why don't the R&A ban the sharpener'. Well the groove sharpener is a tool, not golf equipment. You could also scrape your gooves with a screwdriver, brocken hacksaw blade, a piece of hardend steel etc. Should these be banned as well? Of course they shouldn't, and the R&A would have no grounds to consider the ban.
Some of the comparisons have been a little extreame i.e. kicking the ball out of the rough, moving your ball from an old divot etc. I would compare it with using a non conforming driver, there were lots of these around a few years ago. Using these is a breach of the rules and therefor cheating.
On the cheeper clubs, grooves are either cast or forged early in the manufacturing process. On the more expensive clubs grooves are CNC machined with special cutters at the end of the process, but either way they will have been processed close to the maximum allowed tolerance (new or old specifications).
The only way these 'tools' can remove material and still have the grooves conforming is if the face has been bruised and material has been pushed into the existing groove. This could be removed by scraping but even that would be difficult just to remove the the bruised area. Material removal from any other part of the groove would possibly render the club non conforming. Even with the equipment I have at my disposal, I would find it extreamly difficult to re-machine the grooves to remove the bruise and keep them within the stated tolerance.
Personaly, if I couldn't gaurantee my club was conforming I wouldn't use it.
The first point is the question of 'why don't the R&A ban the sharpener'. Well the groove sharpener is a tool, not golf equipment. You could also scrape your gooves with a screwdriver, brocken hacksaw blade, a piece of hardend steel etc. Should these be banned as well? Of course they shouldn't, and the R&A would have no grounds to consider the ban.
Some of the comparisons have been a little extreame i.e. kicking the ball out of the rough, moving your ball from an old divot etc. I would compare it with using a non conforming driver, there were lots of these around a few years ago. Using these is a breach of the rules and therefor cheating.
On the cheeper clubs, grooves are either cast or forged early in the manufacturing process. On the more expensive clubs grooves are CNC machined with special cutters at the end of the process, but either way they will have been processed close to the maximum allowed tolerance (new or old specifications).
The only way these 'tools' can remove material and still have the grooves conforming is if the face has been bruised and material has been pushed into the existing groove. This could be removed by scraping but even that would be difficult just to remove the the bruised area. Material removal from any other part of the groove would possibly render the club non conforming. Even with the equipment I have at my disposal, I would find it extreamly difficult to re-machine the grooves to remove the bruise and keep them within the stated tolerance.
Personaly, if I couldn't gaurantee my club was conforming I wouldn't use it.
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Region3
Ryder Cup Winner
A couple of thoughts have occurred to me reading some of the latest posts. Not things that I'm really bothered about, but maybe food for thought.
If it were possible to use a groove sharpener whilst still conforming to the rules regarding grooves, my hypothetical sand wedge with scratches all over the face would then be non-conforming because of the rule mashie quoted saying that the club face would then be classed as new rather than worn and the scratches/gouges are then not considered to be normal wear.
Secondly, if as mentioned in another thread, Ping have rescinded their injunction forcing the USGA to allow their pre 1990 box grooves to be considered conforming, is anyone still playing Eye2 irons now playing with a non-conforming club?
If it were possible to use a groove sharpener whilst still conforming to the rules regarding grooves, my hypothetical sand wedge with scratches all over the face would then be non-conforming because of the rule mashie quoted saying that the club face would then be classed as new rather than worn and the scratches/gouges are then not considered to be normal wear.
Secondly, if as mentioned in another thread, Ping have rescinded their injunction forcing the USGA to allow their pre 1990 box grooves to be considered conforming, is anyone still playing Eye2 irons now playing with a non-conforming club?
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
Tried to find out a bit more and these are the notes in the Rules appendix on equipment in relation to face markings.
Note 1: The groove and punch mark specifications above indicated by an asterisk (*) (i.e the new groove rules) apply only to new models of clubs manufactured on or after 1 January 2010 and any club where the face markings have been purposely altered, for example, by re-grooving. For further information on the status of clubs available before 1 January 2010, refer to the "Equipment Search" section of www.randa.org.
Note 2: The Committee may require, in the conditions of competition, that the clubs the player carries must conform to the groove and punch mark specifications above indicated by an asterisk (*). This condition is recommended only for competitions involving expert players. For further information, refer to Decision 4-1/1 in "Decisions on the Rules of Golf".
So on the basis of Note 1 it would seem that if you re-groove your clubs then they must conform to the new groove specifications. But Note 2 suggests that if the Committee don't require compliance with the new groove rules as part of a condition of competition you can still use them (i.e it's the same as for other non-conforming clubs and we non-elite amateurs can use them til 2024).
So that means...I'm confused
DCB
Well-known member
Any old ping clubs have 'grandfather rights' as a result of the dropped lawsuit all those years ago. You may remember some pGA Tour players brought out old Ping wedges after the wedge rules were implemented on tour a couple of seasons back. This was because the Pings were still legal under the old ruling of 19oatcake.
Whilst Ping Eye irons were ahead of the opposition way back in the '90s, there's a lot of improvement elsewhere since then.
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
The analogy with other rule breaches such as kicking the ball out is only a principle.
As has been said, you can't measure the grooves by eye so if someone has re-grooved it would be virtually impossible to tell if a breach has been made. But, in principle, if the grooves have been made non-conforming then it is the same as kicking a ball out of the rough - ie a breach of the Rules. Much the same as the difference between speeding and blowing someone's head off with a 12-bore - not in the same galaxy of severity but, in principle, still breaking the law.
BTatHome
Tour Winner
I see Direct Golf offering regrooving service in the latest flyer for their MOT service 
