Great article - and so so true!

[cliveb]

I'm getting the impression that the low handicappers making these complaints go out with the intention of winning competitions. Speaking as a high handicapper (15), when I play in a comp my aim is to play well and hopefully get a cut. It's me against the course. If I happen to win that's a bonus, but it isn't the reason I enter. I think the single figure moaners would do well to try doing the same.

 

[Slab]

I used to be in club that had a net matchplay comp, now that was something I enjoyed playing in. Far more often than not the better player won these matches, think I won the comp at least twice.

I just won our net matchplay comp
In the semi I took down a pga qualified pro playing off 3, he had to give me 17 shots, went to the 18th hole
In the final I played a guy off 9, it went down to the 18th
Both matches were to&fro, really enjoyable

Both these guys would've taken me to the cleaners if they hadn't made errors at crucial times and it was that rather than the shots that ultimately made the difference

Hats off to their skill relative to mine, I normally get dumped in round one or two in this comp but this year was just the perfect storm

 

[User20204]

I just won our net matchplay comp
In the semi I took down a pga qualified pro playing off 3, he had to give me 17 shots, went to the 18th hole
In the final I played a guy off 9, it went down to the 18th
Both matches were to&fro, really enjoyable

Both these guys would've taken me to the cleaners if they hadn't made errors at crucial times and it was that rather than the shots that ultimately made the difference

Hats off to their skill relative to mine, I normally get dumped in round one or two in this comp but this year was just the perfect storm

Ours were different, it was net score after 18 holes, i e 77 - 4 net 73 against 88 - 13 net 75.

 

[User20204]

I'm getting the impression that the low handicappers making these complaints go out with the intention of winning competitions. Speaking as a high handicapper (15), when I play in a comp my aim is to play well and hopefully get a cut. It's me against the course. If I happen to win that's a bonus, but it isn't the reason I enter. I think the single figure moaners would do well to try doing the same.

I thought this discussion was about matchplay, how do you get cut in matchplay ??

 

[Curls]

Let's park banditry, because it's cheating and if you lose to anyone cheating it doesn't matter what the deal was, it sucks.

Let's park the arguement that handicaps should be banned or are a reward for mediocrity and improvement should be rewarded, I think for that there's scratch golf.


As with all statistics we have problems - two of the biggest for me are sample size and cognitive bias.

How many medal/stableford comps do you play in? As a lower handicap player, if you were to measure your net score against someone off 18 and whoever shot the lower net that day won I bet that over a season of say 20 strokeplay events you would win. Over 10 years you'd trounce them. But how often do we play matchplay? Especially when it is knock out, because when you're out you're out and have no opportunity to up the sample number for the sort of statistics that yielded the results mentioned in the first posts. Over the years you have accumulated a certain sample size, but see point 2.

The second is bias. We have ~120 entries to our net MP KO event every year, only 1 winner. Everyone is going to get beaten, and you're going to remember the times you lost when giving shots negatively (and therefore stronger) over the times you were receiving them or indeed the times you won.

So if you want to read this thread through the lens of bitterness, you're kind of right, but not in as bad/bitter a way you think. If you get beaten at anything your memory takes that badly. It's supposed to. If there's a perceived injustice involved doubly so. And giving someone shots when they could have beaten you off the stick is going to burn itself in there good and deep in the bit of the brain that wants you to succeed at something. That guy had the sort of good day that statisically they are going to every now and then, you ran into him, bad luck. Unfortunately you don't get to try again next week, so just let that fester for a year. Add back in bandits and the chances you'll be stewing at some point are high. For the sake of your health you should just let it go, though we're wired not to by default so you have to overcome that.

Whenever you give shots just remember that statistically you should win, but it's down to whoever plays better on the day, so roll your sleeves up and play as well as you can. That's the game, if you don't want to play it, play scratch golf. For me there is no greater reward for improvement than to be able to compete in a scratch golf match. It's something lots of golfers would love to be able to do but can't for various reasons, so be grateful you're there and crack on. I love it, it has put competing in handicap matchplay in the shade for me. I'll still do it and want to win, its good fun and good competitve practice, but it doesn't hold the same appeal any more and if I lose giving shots to a non-bandit then I'm far more concerned that it was a game played in the best of friendly, competitive sportsmanlike spirit than the result.

 

[rulefan]

I only play scratch opens.

Do you play any club scratch or handicap events, matches or strokeplay?

 

[rulefan]

There are a large number of sports that play to handicap in some way - from snooker to squash, even polo....

Having played all to a relatively high level, tennis, badminton and squash have failed handicap systems.

But how many sports depend entirely on the the player only having the course/pitch as his adversary? (I can only think of darts. )

 

[rulefan]

I wonder what would happen to club membership numbers if all club competitions were played off scratch.

 

[Crow]

I wonder what would happen to club membership numbers if all club competitions were played off scratch.

I suspect that medium to higher handicap members would organise their own competitions, which is what low handicappers could do if they're so worried about losing to an inferior golfer.

 

[patricks148]

I wonder what would happen to club membership numbers if all club competitions were played off scratch.

the best player would always win

 

[Imurg]

I do wonder if any of the "low" handicappers on here have ever beaten a player with a lower handicap that theirs...and whether they thought it was a "good win" or if they think their handicap rewarded them with more chance of winning....

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Let's park banditry, because it's cheating and if you lose to anyone cheating it doesn't matter what the deal was, it sucks.

Let's park the arguement that handicaps should be banned or are a reward for mediocrity and improvement should be rewarded, I think for that there's scratch golf.


As with all statistics we have problems - two of the biggest for me are sample size and cognitive bias.

How many medal/stableford comps do you play in? As a lower handicap player, if you were to measure your net score against someone off 18 and whoever shot the lower net that day won I bet that over a season of say 20 strokeplay events you would win. Over 10 years you'd trounce them. But how often do we play matchplay? Especially when it is knock out, because when you're out you're out and have no opportunity to up the sample number for the sort of statistics that yielded the results mentioned in the first posts. Over the years you have accumulated a certain sample size, but see point 2.

The second is bias. We have ~120 entries to our net MP KO event every year, only 1 winner. Everyone is going to get beaten, and you're going to remember the times you lost when giving shots negatively (and therefore stronger) over the times you were receiving them or indeed the times you won.

So if you want to read this thread through the lens of bitterness, you're kind of right, but not in as bad/bitter a way you think. If you get beaten at anything your memory takes that badly. It's supposed to. If there's a perceived injustice involved doubly so. And giving someone shots when they could have beaten you off the stick is going to burn itself in there good and deep in the bit of the brain that wants you to succeed at something. That guy had the sort of good day that statisically they are going to every now and then, you ran into him, bad luck. Unfortunately you don't get to try again next week, so just let that fester for a year. Add back in bandits and the chances you'll be stewing at some point are high. For the sake of your health you should just let it go, though we're wired not to by default so you have to overcome that.

Whenever you give shots just remember that statistically you should win, but it's down to whoever plays better on the day, so roll your sleeves up and play as well as you can. That's the game, if you don't want to play it, play scratch golf. For me there is no greater reward for improvement than to be able to compete in a scratch golf match. It's something lots of golfers would love to be able to do but can't for various reasons, so be grateful you're there and crack on. I love it, it has put competing in handicap matchplay in the shade for me. I'll still do it and want to win, its good fun and good competitve practice, but it doesn't hold the same appeal any more and if I lose giving shots to a non-bandit then I'm far more concerned that it was a game played in the best of friendly, competitive sportsmanlike spirit than the result.

Indeed - I lost my most recent matchplay match and was K/O'd winter comp as I played poorly - not because I gave my 16 h/cap opponent 8 shots.

 

[Hobbit]

I seem to remember that the original reason for change was that the percentage of low handicappers winning was higher than high handicappers. I dare say once evidence is there to suggest its swung too far the other way it might change again.

I don't mind full allowance in singles but full in a 4 ball against 2 high handicappers having a day out is almost impossible. If they tag team and have a few pars each(net birdies) then a good few bogies(net pars), a net level round is easily achievable.

Shooting 5 under gross, both off 5, and getting beat 6&4 is hard to take.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

How would you feel if you were told ''tough, go somewhere else and play in their h/cap opens'' with all the time and expense that entails.
Beause that's what good players are being told to do.

I don't get your point there.

 

[patricks148]

I do wonder if any of the "low" handicappers on here have ever beaten a player with a lower handicap that theirs...and whether they thought it was a "good win" or if they think their handicap rewarded them with more chance of winning....

but that comparison would be much smaller, personally its only been one maybe two shots and they made a difference undoubtedly

 

[User20204]

Shooting 5 under gross, both off 5, and getting beat 6&4 is hard to take.

Care to go in to more detail ? Having a quick calculation, that means in 9 holes you weren't under par you lost 6 of them yet doesn't account for the 5 under gross you were unless you lost a number of holes you had indeed birdied to net eagles.

 

[robinthehood]

Do lower handicap golfers not have good days too?

 

[patricks148]

I'm getting the impression that the low handicappers making these complaints go out with the intention of winning competitions. Speaking as a high handicapper (15), when I play in a comp my aim is to play well and hopefully get a cut. It's me against the course. If I happen to win that's a bonus, but it isn't the reason I enter. I think the single figure moaners would do well to try doing the same.

i wouldn't agree every guy i play with all goes out in a stroke play comp to shoot the best score they can on the day and get cut... but i digress, this coversation is about diff in match play

 

[Crow]

I seem to remember that the original reason for change was that the percentage of low handicappers winning was higher than high handicappers. I dare say once evidence is there to suggest its swung too far the other way it might change again.

I don't mind full allowance in singles but full in a 4 ball against 2 high handicappers having a day out is almost impossible. If they tag team and have a few pars each(net birdies) then a good few bogies(net pars), a net level round is easily achievable.

Shooting 5 under gross, both off 5, and getting beat 6&4 is hard to take.

I'm sure it would be, but how many actual examples of this are there?

 

[Jacko_G]

Do lower handicap golfers not have good days too?

They have consistency.