if you think that warrents an Infraction i suggest you don't look at some of the bile from the right wing bully boys in the political threads
Great article - and so so true!
- Thread starter Jacko_G
- Start date
Maninblack4612
Tour Winner
Never read themif you think that warrents an Infraction i suggest you don't look at some of the bile from the right wing bully boys in the political threads
Foxholer
Blackballed
Thank heaven for that - though it seems a rather cowardly (fingers in ears approach) action to do so rather than argue (rationally) the issue! I won't have to counter the (mainly) twaddle you posted!
While I appreciate there will be instances where aggrievement is justified, the vast majority of 'extra good rounds' by highr cap players are either completely random or actually due to 'putting the (extra) work in' for a specific reason, but which can't be justified permanently. These rounds are by 'bandits' not cheats. Weeding out cheats is something I'm totally in favour of!
Backache
Assistant Pro
It sounds to me like there are two different issues that are getting conflated here.
One is the correct number of stokes to give in a handicap tournament to make it fair the other is the existence of people playing to artificially high handicaps that have been manipulated.
On the latter it is not just the category 1 or lower handicap player that is affected it is everyone in the tournament who plays them if it is match play. Reducing the number of strokes given does not make the tournament fairer it disadvantages most those with a correctly high handicap and negates the point of handicap golf and incentivises the manipulator to increase their handicap further.
As to whether the number of strokes given is correct or not, froma cursory look by myself at our club low handicap golfers still win a large proportion of the tournaments for which they are eligible. Furthermore as I gather there has been a lot of work done on it by the handicapping authorities I will trust them. The point of handicap golf is to give everyone an equitable chance at the outset not to determine the best golfer. Scratch tournaments do that.
One is the correct number of stokes to give in a handicap tournament to make it fair the other is the existence of people playing to artificially high handicaps that have been manipulated.
On the latter it is not just the category 1 or lower handicap player that is affected it is everyone in the tournament who plays them if it is match play. Reducing the number of strokes given does not make the tournament fairer it disadvantages most those with a correctly high handicap and negates the point of handicap golf and incentivises the manipulator to increase their handicap further.
As to whether the number of strokes given is correct or not, froma cursory look by myself at our club low handicap golfers still win a large proportion of the tournaments for which they are eligible. Furthermore as I gather there has been a lot of work done on it by the handicapping authorities I will trust them. The point of handicap golf is to give everyone an equitable chance at the outset not to determine the best golfer. Scratch tournaments do that.
Grant85
Head Pro
Definitely a number of issues here.
1 - handicaps are generally worked out solely on strokeplay / stableford results - certainly during the season so often not caught up with playing ability or someone inconsistent who doesn't play all that many medals.
2 - Different formats favour different players. I (when handicap in the 20s) was always a big fan of matchplay and four ball. You feel you are always in the match and don't need to play that well to use your shots and contribute. I personally found it very easy to put mid handicappers under pressure with risk free net pars. I wouldn't find it as easy to put a really low player under pressure as they were going for birdies and played a lot better in key moments.
3 - Also most clubs will easily have the situation of a higher handicapper, probably due to lose a shot or two, but just not getting 18 holes together in a medal, being a very effective matchplay guy.
Also with regards players in transition, who could quickly improve and come down a few shots, but its one thing taking a matchplay game 1 hole at a time, it's quite another building a round of 18 holes and keeping doubles and trebles (or worse) off your card. Having been there, and had people telling me for years, you should be much lower etc etc. I just couldn't make the scores in strokeplay but did some damage in matchplay.
In matchplay the higher handicapper should automatically be more relaxed because 1 bad swing doesn't spell disaster, where for the low player, he/she knows they will probably have to make a lot of pars and even birdies to get through, so could be under more pressure from the start.
Unfortunately it is not the kind of thing stats are kept for. Would be interesting if every club would record matchplay results for a season or so... i.e. handicap on day of match and final score... e.g. 2&1. I think you'd find certain courses very much suited to lower players, and vice versa. i.e. 6,600 par 71 will favour the low player. 4,000 yard par 66 could favour the higher players.
1 - handicaps are generally worked out solely on strokeplay / stableford results - certainly during the season so often not caught up with playing ability or someone inconsistent who doesn't play all that many medals.
2 - Different formats favour different players. I (when handicap in the 20s) was always a big fan of matchplay and four ball. You feel you are always in the match and don't need to play that well to use your shots and contribute. I personally found it very easy to put mid handicappers under pressure with risk free net pars. I wouldn't find it as easy to put a really low player under pressure as they were going for birdies and played a lot better in key moments.
3 - Also most clubs will easily have the situation of a higher handicapper, probably due to lose a shot or two, but just not getting 18 holes together in a medal, being a very effective matchplay guy.
Also with regards players in transition, who could quickly improve and come down a few shots, but its one thing taking a matchplay game 1 hole at a time, it's quite another building a round of 18 holes and keeping doubles and trebles (or worse) off your card. Having been there, and had people telling me for years, you should be much lower etc etc. I just couldn't make the scores in strokeplay but did some damage in matchplay.
In matchplay the higher handicapper should automatically be more relaxed because 1 bad swing doesn't spell disaster, where for the low player, he/she knows they will probably have to make a lot of pars and even birdies to get through, so could be under more pressure from the start.
Unfortunately it is not the kind of thing stats are kept for. Would be interesting if every club would record matchplay results for a season or so... i.e. handicap on day of match and final score... e.g. 2&1. I think you'd find certain courses very much suited to lower players, and vice versa. i.e. 6,600 par 71 will favour the low player. 4,000 yard par 66 could favour the higher players.
User20204
Well-known member
Anyone actually read that reply above ?
Curls
Journeyman Pro
I did, why do you ask?
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
We don’t have many matchplay comps .
But we do 4bbb and the scores have been very high. 90% allowance.
48 pts shots received 12/13
45. Shots 9/18
47. Shots 17/9
49. Shots 9/1
48. Shots 18/21.
This is after the 10% deduction so real handicaps are 10% higher.
So only 1 single figure never mind cat1
Tough course playing over 6000yds still these are the results for November.
So if Two 5 handicaps played together they would need to shoot 6 under gross for 47 points.
They can’t do that every week
But there’s always two people who can or better.
But we do 4bbb and the scores have been very high. 90% allowance.
48 pts shots received 12/13
45. Shots 9/18
47. Shots 17/9
49. Shots 9/1
48. Shots 18/21.
This is after the 10% deduction so real handicaps are 10% higher.
So only 1 single figure never mind cat1
Tough course playing over 6000yds still these are the results for November.
So if Two 5 handicaps played together they would need to shoot 6 under gross for 47 points.
They can’t do that every week
But there’s always two people who can or better.
can you just give me the jist?
rulefan
Tour Winner
Such small samples do not provide useful and statistically sound information.
Jacko_G
Blackballed
And statistics from Scottish Golf of 4000 matches does? That is what 10 well supported clubs worth or matches, from memory Scotland has 550 clubs so I'm not sure how statistically sound that research is either.
rulefan
Tour Winner
Scotland was only one authority that sampled the results. The USGA and England did many more. I doubt the results would have been published if the weren't statistically significant.
The report was from a Scottish newspaper, which is why Scotland featured in the article.
bobmac
Major Champion
Count the hits, ignore the misses
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
These are the winning scores and handicaps that won at my club in five Saturday comps in November.
What happens in Scotland is of less importance to ME.
There are many reasons not to play in 4bbb matchplay and this is one of them.
We play a lot of opens 4bbb and when 90% was introduced the winning scores went up by four shots.
In the real world we can’t compete with 48/49 pts no matter what any data says.
rulefan
Tour Winner
As you probably know, 4BBB Opens are the biggest hunting ground for bandits. England Golf has recognised this, which is why there is now a requirement to report such away scores to your home club.
After the issue of players/handicap secs making a mess of transferring members between clubs, the largest number of complaints I get as an EG Handicap Advisor is with 4BBB bandits.
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
Get your point but it’s no coincidence that the scores went up the same amount of shots the bandits got back.
I didn’t think they would be that consistent.
But cat1 players got =0
We go for a day out no more maybe a 2 .
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