To create new revenue streams and present a facade of normalcy for a post-oil country ranked 199 out of 208 for freedom and human rights ?
Can men's pro golf reconcile & what might it look like?
- Thread starter BubbaP
- Start date
LIV or somethink like it would have been great.
I think we all would have liked it to succeed, and nobody can seriously say they arent in favour of a dozen or so new golf tournaments spread around the world, with all the worlds best competing for trophies of sporting value, and some overall league of some sort as well.
But for whatever reason - maybe there just isnt enough money outside the USA interested, maybe the worlds best are happier keeping to the existing swing without hopping time zones in a major way, maybe the Saudi stench was too much for some, and I feel the team nonsense and razzle dazzle just made it too much of a gimmick circus. The Trump style denial of reality of that failure has further alienated and made them look silly.
But the bottom line is that LIV has bombed. Whether it can be restructured, or better just killed off entirely, is probably the real crux of the deal talks.
I think we all would have liked it to succeed, and nobody can seriously say they arent in favour of a dozen or so new golf tournaments spread around the world, with all the worlds best competing for trophies of sporting value, and some overall league of some sort as well.
But for whatever reason - maybe there just isnt enough money outside the USA interested, maybe the worlds best are happier keeping to the existing swing without hopping time zones in a major way, maybe the Saudi stench was too much for some, and I feel the team nonsense and razzle dazzle just made it too much of a gimmick circus. The Trump style denial of reality of that failure has further alienated and made them look silly.
But the bottom line is that LIV has bombed. Whether it can be restructured, or better just killed off entirely, is probably the real crux of the deal talks.
Fore Right
Well-known member
That's the KEY QUESTION and one that most are completely oblivious to by thinking its not making a profit so it must be a failure.
The larger strategic play behind LIV Golf and the PIF’s investment is about geopolitical influence, global branding, and soft power rather than simply creating a profitable golf tour.
- Hosting and sponsoring high-profile global sporting events (including LIV Golf, F1, and major football investments) positions Saudi Arabia as a key player on the global stage, shifting its identity from an oil-dependent state to a modern, diversified economy and a legitimate force in the sports and entertainment sectors.
- The PIF’s chairman, Yasir Al-Rumayyan, has gained direct access to global political and business leaders, including the President of the United States.
- By integrating Saudi Arabia into the Western sports and business world, the kingdom is gaining strategic leverage in future political and economic negotiations.
- This creates a diplomatic and economic bridge between Saudi Arabia and key Western markets, influencing broader trade, defense, and investment decisions.
- Saudi Arabia’s Vision 2030 plan aims to reduce the country’s dependence on oil by investing heavily in tourism, sports, and technology.
- LIV Golf aligns with this strategy by building Saudi Arabia’s presence in a multi-billion-dollar global industry, helping to position the country as a hub for international sporting events and tourism.
- LIV Golf gives Saudi Arabia a seat at the table in professional golf’s governance.
- The goal isn’t necessarily to dominate the sport financially—it’s to force a merger or partnership with the PGA Tour and DP World Tour, which would put Saudi Arabia in a position to reshape professional golf’s structure and calendar to its benefit.
- The potential introduction of Saudi-backed team formats or event purses could permanently shift the balance of power in global golf.
- By attracting top players with massive contracts and creating new formats, LIV Golf is influencing the future of professional golf.
- This positions Saudi Arabia as a disruptor and innovator in global sports, reinforcing its soft power and influence over Western cultural institutions.
LIV Golf isn’t about profit and loss—it’s about influence. The PIF’s financial backing means LIV can operate at a loss indefinitely because the true return comes from increased political leverage, global branding, and strategic control over professional golf. Even if LIV never makes a profit, the value gained through political access, cultural influence, and economic diversification could far exceed the monetary investment.You may have LIV's causes of failure in a nutshell there - too many golfers found such a framework repellent despite the personal gain available. Those who signed, probably didnt appreciate your picture of what it is really about. G McDowell thought it was about growing the game of golf itself. He didnt mention geopolitical influence for Saudi at all in his rationale for joining.
Fore Right
Well-known member
Just pointing out its not a failure when you understand the larger picture at play for the Saudi's
I am agreeing. But in a sporting sense it is a facade and failure, which is how the wider population views it. Joe Soap, is not saying - LIV is great, it is a super success at opening access for Saudis to western political heads, I love it !
In sum, we might say, a sporting failure, a sportswashing success.
Fore Right
Well-known member
It really comes down to perspective and personal preference.
You see it as a failure because you don’t like it. That’s fair.
Personally, I don’t see it as a sporting failure—I enjoy watching it just as much as the PGA Tour. At the end of the day, it’s all just professional golf to me played in a different format.
An American golf fan might view it as a failure, while an Australian fan would see the same product as a huge success.
But the reality is, and what matters most is how the Saudis view it. And for the reasons I’ve already outlined, they see it as a success—which means, like it or not, LIV Golf probably isn’t going anywhere anytime soon.
Im now checking out
No, I see it as a failure because it has not attracted, despite the billions on offer to them, anything even close to the field quality of the PGAT, it has gained no significant following from fans, it has established no credibility for its tournaments as career notable wins for its players, and people are laughing at, rather than attracted to such innovations such as the teams, A Kim, louder, youtube, and fanboy bot effort to give the impression it has a big following.
Thats just not me not liking it - on its general principle, I love it. But it has failed in its non delivery of a top quality alternative equal or better than the PGATs offering.
Mel Smooth
Hacker
I suggest you go and look at and compare this mornings leaderboards - one of them does look like it could be a 5th Major - but it's not from Sawgrass..
Pleased to see Canter doing well at The Players though, 2 back - he'll be pleased with that, after failing to secure a place on LIV.
If you mean the LIV one does, you need to look at the whole leader board of both, to see that the field quality in the LIV just isnt there to be a credible tournament, let alone top rank. Taking it further, you could thin it down to Bryson, Brooks, and Rahm only - they would always be 1,2,3, but that doesnt mean its a high quality tournament.
Or another way. 54 players in itself, reduces the competition. From the 54, how many would be able to hold PGAT cards ? 15 maybe, at the limit ? Thats not a strong golf tournament.
pendodave
Tour Rookie
Yeah, this seems about right to me.
Ironically, the most obvious thing that it has achieved is to improve non LIV golf : Majors are more significant than they already were. The PGA tour has shaken itself out of the monopoly torpour it has enjoyed for the last 20 years and tried to develop and improve its own product.
Nobody watches it. Once the figures had to be reported by Fox it was made perfectly clear. If it wasn't for the Useful Idiots here, nobody would be talking about the actual golf on this forum. It's a curiosity in global sports and politics (which I do find interesting, hence this post), but nothing more.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
So ultimately it comes down to using vast fortunes to try and buy their way in and sportswashing
The one thing that will always stop them is the human rights and female rights and LGBT etc
Until they do drag themselves into the modern world no amount of money will be able to cover that up
Golf itself needs to come together in some way before it goes too far
Splits in sports don’t work - there is enough evidence of that
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BubbaP
Occasional Player of Golf
As futile as it may be, I will remind on the thread title. (Yes I know "it's a forum")
Shame the bickering and "opinions as facts" stuff has leaked onto here
Shame the bickering and "opinions as facts" stuff has leaked onto here
wjemather
Well-known member
Has it though?
Seems like the complacency of relying on Tiger to drive ratings and sponsorship for 20+ years lingers on, and they have no clue how to run a successful professional golf tour without him. The fact they keep trying to ride him when he can barely walk (TGL, teasing that he'll play signature events, etc.) shows that nothing has really changed in their thinking... and their broadcast coverage remains some of the worst in all sports.
In essence, yes. And For Rights point is well made. The claim that LIV is a success when you set its goals as geopolitical influence and transformative economics can be made. Its when slight of hand bends "succesful" to mean succesful in a purely golf or sporting sense, which is of course how sports fans will judge. On that metric, its a comprehensive thumbs down.
On the question of sportswashing, one could ask whether PIF has won or lost more friends through the LIV project, and that even as sportswashing it has not helped the Saudi PR cause.
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pendodave
Tour Rookie
I think it has.
Believe me, I am no fan of the PGA tour and its one eyed view of its importance and extraordinary complacency and self entitlement. I'd say, on balance, they've been a malignant presence in golf as a global game.
But they have been forced to shake things up since LIV came along. The signature events are a sign of this. They have also started to (pretend?) to take the fan experience and TV product more seriously.
One of the downsides of any reconciliation would be that you can be certain that they'll just go back to their bad old ways as soon as their existence is no longer called into question.
Fore Right
Well-known member
Im far from 100% sure it can but hope it can.
Both Tours will run co currently and some solution will be found for cross over events where the best players play against each other more often.
McGinleys solution made a lot of sense.
Mel Smooth
Hacker
As futile as it may be, I will remind on the thread title. (Yes I know "it's a forum")
Shame the bickering and "opinions as facts" stuff has leaked onto here
I think part of the discussion as to what golf will look like has to be how we watch it. I’ve said it numerous times but conventional tv viewing is nearing the end of it’s life cycle.
While some people feel that LIV has failed because it’s slow to gain tv numbers traction in one country, the numbers of people following on social media accounts tell a completely different story.
While the PGAT has 5 million followers on Instagram, LIV has already matched the DPWT at 1 million.
Tik Tok - LIV has half of the PGAT’s 2 million followers, and 4 times that of the DPWT, and that despite the DPWT arguably producing the best social media content of all three tours.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
I think part of the discussion as to what golf will look like has to be how we watch it. I’ve said it numerous times but conventional tv viewing is nearing the end of it’s life cycle.
While some people feel that LIV has failed because it’s slow to gain tv numbers traction in one country, the numbers of people following on social media accounts tell a completely different story.
While the PGAT has 5 million followers on Instagram, LIV has already matched the DPWT at 1 million.
Tik Tok - LIV has half of the PGAT’s 2 million followers, and 4 times that of the DPWT, and that despite the DPWT arguably producing the best social media content of all three tours.
People following on social media could be for multiple reasons
But people will still want to watch a sport event on a big telly
It’s why media rights are massive for all sports
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
I think part of the discussion as to what golf will look like has to be how we watch it. I’ve said it numerous times but conventional tv viewing is nearing the end of it’s life cycle.
While some people feel that LIV has failed because it’s slow to gain tv numbers traction in one country, the numbers of people following on social media accounts tell a completely different story.
While the PGAT has 5 million followers on Instagram, LIV has already matched the DPWT at 1 million.
Tik Tok - LIV has half of the PGAT’s 2 million followers, and 4 times that of the DPWT, and that despite the DPWT arguably producing the best social media content of all three tours.
What kinda timescale do you reckon? 4/5 years or more like 15/20 years ?
