Golf Societies & Official Handicaps?

[Old Skier]

Maybe he wants to play in an open comp, maybe he wants to play in a national knock out, maybe when he plays with his mate whos a member somewhere and hes likes to be able to tell him his handicap without an argument over it not being real and if he wins it not counting because his handicap isnt real, maybe he wants one for his ego, maybe he cant afford membership currently but wants to keep his handicap, maybe hes injured/ill and doesnt want to commit to the high annual cost of membership.

Theres lot of reasons but they dont fit with the picture of the clubs, membership and their members

Put it the other way, why are so many clubs and their members so against anyone else being able to administer official handicaps?

Perhaps it’s because clubs need to follow rules and policies laid out by R&A/ EG/CONGU/County, and are audited to make sure that they are adhered too, how would the governing bodies ensure a single person/small society comply and how much will they be willing to pay above normal green fees to allow them to have the HC.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Because they would want to take advantage of the many cheap opens around the county that require people to have official handicaps - it’s something that’s been complained about regularly.

 

[fundy]

Because they would want to take advantage of the many cheap opens around the county that require people to have official handicaps - it’s something that’s been complained about regularly.

Are these cheap opens only for the benefit of existing golf club members and if so why?

 

[fundy]

Perhaps it’s because clubs need to follow rules and policies laid out by R&A/ EG/CONGU/County, and are audited to make sure that they are adhered too, how would the governing bodies ensure a single person/small society comply and how much will they be willing to pay above normal green fees to allow them to have the HC.

Why cant a society follow the rules the same as a club, just with far far lower volume?

Lol if you think all clubs are audited and adhere to the rules

 

[fundy]

IF your clubs and membership are really that great what are you all afraid of?

Go on say it, you know you want to.........

 

[Old Skier]

Are these cheap opens only for the benefit of existing golf club members and if so why?

They are only cheap to enter, entrance have already paid membership and affiliated fees.

 

[IanM]

I don't disagree with your point about inclusivity. But, removing both chips and snobbery....

Handicaps need regulating by something regulatable. Currently that's clubs, but I am sure it doesn't have to be.

Back in the 90s I ran a Society, we wanted to register handicaps for players who were not members of Clubs (about 80% of the membership) The EGU ran a scheme to make Societies Registered.. (can't remember the actual terminology) We paid a fee and were given a procedure to follow on handicaps. Was different to the Congu process and there was no process of checking if we did it. (I wonder if anything similar is around now?)

We joined it in order to get access to certain courses that stipulated "handicap certs needed for all players. I wonder if that is common now?

So if I wasn't a member, what would the impact be?

• Playing in "Opens" - there's a barrier. So, Soc Handicaps would need some for of checks... and I agree, the current club based one isn't perfect.
• Playing other courses. Limited impact, I can't remember last time I was asked for a certificate.
• Booking starting times. Not an issue really, plenty of websites for that now. Booking 9am on a Saturday on a members' club? Less easy, but surely that's understandable?

IF your clubs and membership are really that great what are you all afraid of?

Go on say it, you know you want to.........

I actually can't think of anything. So, how do we give Societies access to the necessary tools to manage this? Maybe Socs don't want to pay for the systems.? ... ours wouldnt, it is for fun days out and a decent dinner/drink after! I guess in reality, some would, some wouldnt.

 

[Old Skier]

Why cant a society follow the rules the same as a club, just with far far lower volume?

Lol if you think all clubs are audited and adhere to the rules

I don’t ”think” they are audited and adhere to the rules, they have to complete an annual statement and send it to county stating they do. County HC members do checks on clubs.

 

[fundy]

I don’t ”think” they are audited and adhere to the rules, they have to complete an annual statement and send it to county stating they do. County HC members do checks on clubs.

lol pretty sure any society could meet that requirement in the less than 5 minutes it took my previous club

 

[Old Skier]

I don't disagree with your point about inclusivity. But, removing both chips and snobbery....

Handicaps need regulating by something regulatable. Currently that's clubs, but I am sure it doesn't have to be.

Back in the 90s I ran a Society, we wanted to register handicaps for players who were not members of Clubs (about 80% of the membership) The EGU ran a scheme to make Societies Registered.. (can't remember the actual terminology) We paid a fee and were given a procedure to follow on handicaps. Was different to the Congu process and there was no process of checking if we did it. (I wonder if anything similar is around now?)

We joined it in order to get access to certain courses that stipulated "handicap certs needed for all players. I wonder if that is common now?

So if I wasn't a member, what would the impact be?

• Playing in "Opens" - there's a barrier. So, Soc Handicaps would need some for of checks... and I agree, the current club based one isn't perfect.
• Playing other courses. Limited impact, I can't remember last time I was asked for a certificate.
• Booking starting times. Not an issue really, plenty of websites for that now. Booking 9am on a Saturday on a members' club? Less easy, but surely that's understandable?

I actually can't think of anything. So, how do we give Societies access to the necessary tools to manage this? Maybe Socs don't want to pay for the systems.? ... ours wouldnt, it is for fun days out and a decent dinner/drink after! I guess in reality, some would, some wouldnt.

Perhaps they would like to sign up and pay the fees to an ISV, sounds like @fundy wants cheaper golf than members. First the player was only playing 3-4 times a year, now he wants access to opens.

There aren’t many clubs asking for handicap certs so society golfers who aren’t club members have access to many clubs so I’m not sure what the problem is.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Are these cheap opens only for the benefit of existing golf club members and if so why?

It’s one of the benefits of holding a Congu Handicap and Clubs know this hence why they hold them amongst others - if people were allowed to just hold a HC without being a member then how many clubs do you think would lose members ?

Is it going to be enough to affect the finances of a club - potentially yes , and how will those clubs attempt to bring those finances back ? Charge more to societies ? Increase the cost for Opens ? Or even put some of the courses under threat.

Being a member of a club has benefits - and it’s main one is holding an Handicap , one the club looks after and pays the fees to be able to look after - would a society be happy to pay for the ISV to interact with the CDH to administer their handicaps ?

golf clubs need members to stay alive. Why should people who aren’t willing to ensure that be able to have benefits of having an official handicap ?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Are these cheap opens only for the benefit of existing golf club members and if so why?

It is probably clubs protecting each others interests, fully understand that, and looking to protect the integrity of the competition, that ship may have sailed of course.

There is an element of wanting cake and eating it here. Clubs are entitled to protect their own interests.

 

[fundy]

It is probably clubs protecting each others interests, fully understand that, and looking to protect the integrity of the competition, that ship may have sailed of course.

There is an element of wanting cake and eating it here. Clubs are entitled to protect their own interests.

I thought clubs ran opens to advertise their club and attract new members, is that not the case anymore?

Or are they just money making days for members of other clubs nowadays?

 

[fundy]

Perhaps they would like to sign up and pay the fees to an ISV, sounds like @fundy wants cheaper golf than members. First the player was only playing 3-4 times a year, now he wants access to opens.

There aren’t many clubs asking for handicap certs so society golfers who aren’t club members have access to many clubs so I’m not sure what the problem is.

Lol nice guess but wrong

Historically, membership has worked for me, and if/when im fit again I expect it will again. Doesnt mean I cant see that it doesnt work for everyone, but some of this thread confirms exactly why it wont change anytime soon.

As for the wanting cheaper golf, its the club members who clearly want to not risk their cost per round compared to the more infrequent golfer (and be subsidised by them), but you keep interpreting my words to fit your argument

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I thought clubs ran opens to advertise their club and attract new members, is that not the case anymore?

Or are they just money making days for members of other clubs nowadays?

I think the aim is the former but with some proviso's. If anyone could enter cheap Opens then even less reason to join a club. What a year you could have.

 

[jim8flog]

Not sure this would be the reason why. Perhaps the fear of golfers leaving clubs may be one valid reason

At the end of the day it is not up to clubs to decide it is the up to the holders of the rights for the system to decide. Their product, their Rules.

From The England Golf FAQS

Q: Do I have to be a member of a golf club to have WHS handicap?
A: Yes

Clubs are only affiliated members.

 

[OLgolfer]

Thanks, I got my answer in the first reply. Only skimmed the rest of the replies.

Maybe opening up official handicaps to more people would be a great way to make the game more accessible.. Oh no.. hang on. this is golf. Forget it... keep those barriers up for as long as possible.

Societies can already register with England Golf. Why not expand this and create official handicaps for societies that are registered, then the control can still be enforced.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Thanks, I got my answer in the first reply. Only skimmed the rest of the replies.

Maybe opening up official handicaps to more people would be a great way to make the game more accessible.. Oh no.. hang on. this is golf. Forget it... keep those barriers up for as long as possible.

Societies can already register with England Golf. Why not expand this and create official handicaps for societies that are registered, then the control can still be enforced.

Because it’s about protecting the golf clubs - which at the end of the day are extremely important in the grand scheme of things

The game is accessible to all in various guises - there are many different forms of golf membership available to everyone

As was asked - would the society be willing to pay the required fees to the governing bodies and ISVs to administer?

The question as well is - why does a society need official handicaps ? Most societies I play in have their own handicap processes.

 

[Whereditgo]

To my mind the biggest plusses for being a member of a golf club are being able to play pretty much whenever I want at no additional cost and the regular competitions (accepted that is only really possible with a handicap system). The handicap itself is just a byproduct of being a member.

I can't remember ever having been asked to give evidence of having a handicap when playing a different course.

Many people don't want to play the same course regularly, but without the financial stability that members provide, a lot of courses would simply have to close.

 

[OLgolfer]

Because it’s about protecting the golf clubs - which at the end of the day are extremely important in the grand scheme of things

The game is accessible to all in various guises - there are many different forms of golf membership available to everyone

As was asked - would the society be willing to pay the required fees to the governing bodies and ISVs to administer?

The question as well is - why does a society need official handicaps ? Most societies I play in have their own handicap processes.

Not everyone wants to be a member at a golf club. Many reasons why not, cost being one, not wanting to play the same course every week is another. Golf can be much more accessible, but thats a whole other debate and topic.

Plus... there are too many golf clubs in this country. We could do with a few of them shutting down, especially the 90's farmer field courses.

To your questions, yes the society I'm part of would pay the governing bodies as many of our members are not members of clubs and would like an official handicap. Is that enough of a reason for you?

I've not heard one person every say they joined a golf club because of the perk of having an official handicap.

Edit: also for our society £1-£2k a year for the right software is not a problem