Giving shots in Matchplay

[golfa]

Playing in a pairs Matchplay this coming Saturday. Partner and I are both on 10. Opponents are on 11 and 23. So we are giving one player 1 shot (taken on number 1 stroke hole) and his partner receives 13 shots (taken on stroke holes 1 - 13.) No problem with that although it's going to be tough !

Here's the question. What if we are all square after 18 ? The 1st hole (which would be the 19th) is stroke 7 .... do we have to give the 23 handicapper ANOTHER shot ? Surely he's not entitled to MORE shots if the round has to continue ? As far as I'm concerned, he's had his 13 shots and shouldn't get any more if the match continues for extra holes.

 

[Imurg]

Sadly he gets the shot....

 

[chrisd]

As would his partner if you were "all square" and getting round to stroke index 1 for the second time

 

[golfa]

Man, this is going to be tough ! Thank you for the clarification.

 

[KenL]

Out of interest, how are you working out the shots to be given?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Man, this is going to be tough ! Thank you for the clarification.

Our 2nd is SI2. In most matches I’ll be giving a shot on that hole so if all square on 18, and as 2nd is a tough par 4 for me, I know the jeopardy if I don’t finish the match on the 19th. Way it is.

 

[Steven Rules]

Playing in a pairs Matchplay this coming Saturday.

First of all, what do you mean by 'pairs match play'? Four ball or fousomes or something else? Then we might be able to give some authoritative advice on giving shots. The way you have described the giving of shots so far is.....wrong.

 

[rulefan]

Playing in a pairs Matchplay this coming Saturday. Partner and I are both on 10. Opponents are on 11 and 23. So we are giving one player 1 shot (taken on number 1 stroke hole) and his partner receives 13 shots (taken on stroke holes 1 - 13.)

Are those 'handicaps' Course handicaps, Playing Handicaps or even Handicap Indices ?

 

[Colin L]

Playing in a pairs Matchplay this coming Saturday. Partner and I are both on 10. Opponents are on 11 and 23. So we are giving one player 1 shot (taken on number 1 stroke hole) and his partner receives 13 shots (taken on stroke holes 1 - 13.) No problem with that although it's going to be tough !

I'm assuming that these are the players' course handicaps and, from your description, that you were playing a four ball match (i.e the better ball ball of each side counting at each hole). You made it tougher than you needed to as your opponents would receive 1 stroke and 12 strokes respectively. You seem to be unaware that in four ball your playing handicap (the strokes you actually receive for that format) is 90% of your course handicap.

As to your actual question, ask yourself what the reason for handicap strokes is. If your opponent gets strokes from you it's because he is a less good player. He gets strokes to even things up for him and the number he gets is calculated to be what he needs for 18 holes. If a match is extended because it was all square after 18, does he suddenly become as good a player as you over the next holes that have to be played, a player who therefore does not need any handicap strokes? Of course not. He remains a less good player and he gets the proportion of strokes he needs to keep him on a level with you according to the number of extra holes played. He gets these strokes as indicated by the stroke index.

 

[golfa]

I'm assuming that these are the players' course handicaps and, from your description, that you were playing a four ball match (i.e the better ball ball of each side counting at each hole). You made it tougher than you needed to as your opponents would receive 1 stroke and 12 strokes respectively. You seem to be unaware that in four ball your playing handicap (the strokes you actually receive for that format) is 90% of your course handicap.

As to your actual question, ask yourself what the reason for handicap strokes is. If your opponent gets strokes from you it's because he is a less good player. He gets strokes to even things up for him and the number he gets is calculated to be what he needs for 18 holes. If a match is extended because it was all square after 18, does he suddenly become as good a player as you over the next holes that have to be played, a player who therefore does not need any handicap strokes? Of course not. He remains a less good player and he gets the proportion of strokes he needs to keep him on a level with you according to the number of extra holes played. He gets these strokes as indicated by the stroke index.

Yes, it's four ball better ball. I'm in New Zealand and we give the full difference in course handicaps. Essentially, my partner and I are literally off scratch and our opponents are off 1 and 13 respectively. They get the shots off the stroke hole ratings. So they will both get a shot on hole 7 which is the number 1 stroke hole. After that, only the 23 handicapper will be getting more shots.

As an aside, I have an English golf book from the 90s and in it, it describes the various types of "games". I seem to remember that matchplay handicap differences was only two thirds the difference. Maybe I'm wrong, but I still have the book somewhere but it'll be buried in a box in my garage somewhere. I've always believed that the "full difference" in handicaps was very tough on the lower handicapped player.

Thank you everyone for the clarification. I'll let you know if we win !

 

[Slab]

............................Thank you everyone for the clarification. I'll let you know if we win !

Good luck with the match (remember too, its supposed to be tough to win)

As for the other fella getting a stroke on 1st if you’re tied after 18. Its no different to you playing a 3 handicapper and then you’d be the one getting the shot on the 1st play off hole

If you think it’ll be a close game likely to go the distance, do take note of how the 23 capper plays the 1st hole first time round it might show you a strength or weakness you could consider when it comes round again, as well as watching all the approach shots & putts carefully to see what the ball does. (its your chance to learn how the green & pin is playing on the day before ‘playing it again’

Apologies if this isn’t new info for you

 

[Colin L]

The 90% handicap allowance for four ball is a WHS recommendation. CONGU determined that all WHS handicap allowance be mandatory but its jurisdiction doesn't quite extend as far as the Land of the Long White Cloud. For us the 90% in four ball was just a continuation of previous practice; we get 100% of our course handicap in singles match play.

I'd leave your book from the 90s in your garage. If you're interested in the various recommended handicap allowances, you'll find them in Appendix C of the WHS Rules of Handicapping.

Enjoy your game.

 

[Swango1980]

Playing in a pairs Matchplay this coming Saturday. Partner and I are both on 10. Opponents are on 11 and 23. So we are giving one player 1 shot (taken on number 1 stroke hole) and his partner receives 13 shots (taken on stroke holes 1 - 13.) No problem with that although it's going to be tough !

Here's the question. What if we are all square after 18 ? The 1st hole (which would be the 19th) is stroke 7 .... do we have to give the 23 handicapper ANOTHER shot ? Surely he's not entitled to MORE shots if the round has to continue ? As far as I'm concerned, he's had his 13 shots and shouldn't get any more if the match continues for extra holes.

His 13 shots are for 18 holes of golf, not 19 and beyond. So, of course he should get his shots if it goes to extra holes. If, for some reason, 4 holes were closed due to maintenance and the Competition Committee declared the match just simply be decided over 14 holes, you wouldn't be happy giving this guy his 13 shots. And, nor would you, so it works both ways.

Another way to look at it, if a scratch golfer gives an 18 handicapper 18 shots (a shot a hole), and the match goes to extra holes, the 18-handicapper does not suddenly develop the ability of a scratch golfer, nor does the scratch golfer suddenly decline to the ability of an 18-handicapper. So, if the 18-handicapper no longer got any shots going into extra holes, the match suddenly becomes drastically unfair on that player, and hugely benefits the scratch golfer.

 

[berniethebolt]

I accept that it is the rule that a player may get another shot on the 19th because he is a less able golfer. But it is still unfair because if he gets a shot on the first hole and, as a result wins it, then I still have 17 holes to recover the situation. If it is the 19th and he uses his shot to win the hole then the game is over and I have no opportunity to recover. Of course if the Committee follow R & A guidelines and make the first a middling stoke index hole then there would have to be a considerable difference in handicap for the situation to occur and one would like to think that the better golfer would still be competitive.

 

[Colin L]

I accept that it is the rule that a player may get another shot on the 19th because he is a less able golfer. But it is still unfair because if he gets a shot on the first hole and, as a result wins it, then I still have 17 holes to recover the situation. If it is the 19th and he uses his shot to win the hole then the game is over and I have no opportunity to recover. Of course if the Committee follow R & A guidelines and make the first a middling stoke index hole then there would have to be a considerable difference in handicap for the situation to occur and one would like to think that the better golfer would still be competitive.

That's absolutely the reason why the first holes on the course should be higher up the SI Index.

 

[YandaB]

That's absolutely the reason why the first holes on the course should be higher up the SI Index.

Unfortunately the principle that CONGU gave regarding none of the first 8 strokes being on holes 1 and 18 (and stating that it should be SI's 9,10,11 and 12 on holes 1,9,10 and 18 in an appropriate order) is no longer in Appendix E - Stroke Allocation in the WHS guidelines :-(
Edited - Nothing to prevent you from following those old principles though

 

[jim8flog]

I accept that it is the rule that a player may get another shot on the 19th because he is a less able golfer. But it is still unfair because if he gets a shot on the first hole and, as a result wins it, then I still have 17 holes to recover the situation. If it is the 19th and he uses his shot to win the hole then the game is over and I have no opportunity to recover. Of course if the Committee follow R & A guidelines and make the first a middling stoke index hole then there would have to be a considerable difference in handicap for the situation to occur and one would like to think that the better golfer would still be competitive.

and if a player receives 18 shots what difference does it make?

 

[berniethebolt]

and if a player receives 18 shots what difference does it make?

Sorry what is your point?

 

[golfa]

Well, we got hammered. Won the first hole, halved the second. The following 6 holes were shot holes for the opposition. At the turn, we were 4 down. Halved 10, won 11. And then had 4 more shot holes in a row for the opposition. The 23 handicapper parred the last 2 of the 4 and we were done. He actually would have got shots on the last 2 holes but didn't need them.

 

[Foxholer]

I accept that it is the rule that a player may get another shot on the 19th because he is a less able golfer. But it is still unfair because if he gets a shot on the first hole and, as a result wins it, then I still have 17 holes to recover the situation. If it is the 19th and he uses his shot to win the hole then the game is over and I have no opportunity to recover. Of course if the Committee follow R & A guidelines and make the first a middling stoke index hole then there would have to be a considerable difference in handicap for the situation to occur and one would like to think that the better golfer would still be competitive.

1. Who ever suggested that Golf is fair?
2. That's how 'Sudden Death' works!
3. If it's truly rated such that someone gets a shot in hole 1, it's likely actually a harder hole than its rating - because of the previously stated policy of having higher SI than real difficulty for the early holes.