Forgiveness.

[Imurg]

Is forgiveness quantifiable?

The manufacturers and reviewers keep banging on about this is more forgiving than that and A is a forgiving club, but is it actually quantifiable?
I know Ralph Maltby has his Playability index and that goes some way to producing the goods but his figures for some, for instance, TM irons are very low when the club itself is always said to be very forgiving - Burner 2.0 (607) vs Cally Razr (970)...???

 

[USER1999]

I lost faith in Ralph Maltby when he said my MacGregor 1025M blades were game improving. Mine certainly weren't.

Not sure how it can be quantified, as it is a function of MOI, placement of CG, and bounce angles. Obviously Maltby has had a go at combining these into a system, but it is flawed in my view.

The other issue I have with it is that one player may find a club with a face which sits closed very forgiving. Me? Hook monster, every time. Forgiving? Paff. But others would struggle with an open face.

 

[Fyldewhite]

Good question and I don't know if it's possible to mathematically rank clubs in some way. It's a bit like "feel", everyone knows what it means but it's difficult to describe. It's easy to distinguish one end of the scale from another but I couldn't really tell between two very similar clubs which was the slightly more forgiving.

 

[Losttheplot]

Not sure how to quantify feel.

The only way I know of would be to say blades have very little forgiveness while game improving shovels have a lot more.

Maybe forgiveness could be explained by the Ping users amongst us as they look for an older players set of irons to help them out a bit...

 

[robbest3offthetee]

I have played Ping Irons for a while now,( cant remember how long ),currently have the S58 Irons and can honestly say,they are the best Irons ive ever had,not as forgiving as my Eye2 Irons,but a better "feel" of the club face...

 

[HRC99]

Statistically, you can come up with a measure but, in practice, people's swings are so very different that measuring it effectively for all is probably nigh on impossible.

 

[MashieNiblick]

From what I can gather Maltby bases his ratings on the dimensions and form of the club head. Maltby accepts that this is only a starting point and doesn't take into account other factors such as the golfers swing, which in my view is quite important.

I think to do it totally objectively, it could be done on the basis of setting up a very accurate robot to hit balls at varying distances from the "centre" of the club and comparing the results to a centre hit. That would give you lots of data and you could work out some kind of formula or table to show to what degree an off centre hit affects the ball flight, distance and direction.

Obviously you can test it personally by just hitting lots of balls with different clubs so you get lots of different contacts then see what the distribution is like. The club with the most consistent distribution would I guess be the club that is most forgiving for you.

 

[G_Mulligan]

I imagine they are tested in laboratories with thermal imaging cameras, robot arms hitting balls, launch monitors. They will test them again and again with off centre hits and see how far and how straight the ball goes.

So the more forgiving clubs will have much better numbers on the off centre hits than better player clubs and will also show the M.O.I.

 

[Oddsocks]

Forgiving my ass, come from players tm supersteel burners circa 2000 to 09 burners. No more forgiving at all.

As I feel, I still feel a *** when I duff/shank/thin/snap hook the new clubs

 

[ScienceBoy]

Think of it as a project triangle.

An example could be:

One point is sping or workability (fade/draw easily)

Another is distance retention on off centre hits

The other is feedback.

GIs give lots of the middle but less of the other two.

Blades give lots of the top and bottom but less of the middle.

I am sure you could use others things on the points but I only thought of this in a 2 min space.

 

[billyg]

Maybe forgiveness could be explained by the Ping users amongst us as they look for an older players set of irons to help them out a bit...

Ha!

Well, I'm currently using a set of SGI irons - K15's with graphite shafts in regular flex( I don't think clubs get much more 'forgiving' than that combo do they?). I recently had them fitted and when we went through the fitting process the instructor said prettymuch any style of club head would suit my swing and ball striking but I ended up with the daddy of all SGI's. Why? because the odd off- centre strike still goes straight and anything a bit fat or thin still gets out there.


The 'pures' are still very satisfying but the mishits don't give me tennis elbow. It's a fair compromise.

I'm not really that interesed in trying to flatter myself or impress anyone else by buying a set of clubs that are above my abilities.

I'm a high handicapper and use high handicapper clubs.

I suppose the only thing I don't really like about them is that all of that forgiveness is packaged within a club designed to get the ball airbourne fast and high. I don't really have any problems with getting the ball off the ground so find the flight needlessly high and can't help feeling I'm being robbed of some distance but so be it.

The only reason I could ever think of getting more of a players-style set of irons would be pinpoint accuracy, distance and shot shaping but I think I would have to be pushing single figures to think it worthwhile.

I perfectly accept the somewhat staid and conservative image that gets bandied about concerning Ping and to be honest yeah - it's probably true. Never really thought much about it but I can see it.

I guess it's like anything- cars for instance- e.g. I wouldn't own an Alfa Romeo or a Maserati over a Lexus or Toyota even if you gave me one which prettymuch makes me 'Ping man' through and through I suppose.

billyg

 

[RGDave]

I haven't lost faith in the MPF.
Ralph himself posted on the forum (yes, I'm signed up) as to why TM irons don't tend to score high numbers. I believe it's the same reason why Mizuno score a little lower too.

 

[Oddsocks]

Which was why Dave ?

 

[RGDave]

Which was why Dave ?

Can't remember. I'll look it up when I've got a mo'

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Not sure how you quantify it for everyday players. I didn't find the MP53 as forgiving as my current much older TP's. I hit the I15 better than the Nike Pro Combo. Not sure how you really gauge what is right without taking into account all the other aspects like shaft, grip size and of course the individuals own swing.

 

[RGDave]

Which was why Dave ?

VCOG. Vertical centre of gravity.

Lower in Callaways and some Pings etc.
Higher in TM and Mizuno.

I can't really explain any further, but if I get the idea, some designers mess around with it to stop "better" ball strikers getting too much height with SGI irons.

Small adjustments, small difference, but enough to knock the rating down.

 

[kid2]

I think that Imurg has touched on a valid point...
If you play with a club long enough you'll eventually be able to hit it I think...Its the mind games that we all play from time to time that nail us...
All it takes is 1 or 2 bad swings and what's the conclusion...
Of course its the clubs....Complete shite in my opinion now...And iv been one to blame them in the past..To that i will hold my hand up...

As most know on here I've had my fair share of clubs over the past 18 months or so and to be honest the 2 lowest rounds i shot were with Wilsonstaff FG Tour irons...

Id go back to them in the morning except Im loving my i10's...They'll be here for a long time yet...

That's another thing...Apparently I'm using irons that according to some are well below my handicap level but I find them very easy to hit..

Also I play a Ping i15 3 wood and 3 hybrid both designed for low handicap players but I hit these so much better than the G15's...
So what's the catch?...Iv no idea....All I know is that they are clubs aimed at better players which I find easier to hit..
Is this a testament to forgiveness?

 

[Imurg]

I think it's more a testament to the way you sing the club Kid.
There's really too much made of the "Player's" and "High-handicapper's" clubs. Sure, MP68's are not going to be easy for a 28'er to use but there are some who will swing the club in a way that gets them to work. Similarly, a set of GI or SGI clubs that "should" reside in the bag of a "hacker" can be used very effectively by a low handicap player.
Although I had a good round yesterday (and the day before!), I still think I need a bit more help with the miss-hits. I chunked a few irons into greens and the results were poor. The mishit just didn't go anywhere.
I think I'm narrowing it down to MP53, JPX800PRo, AP2 or even the Cally Razr X Tour. I'm after performance and forgiveness - maybe going back to Callaway can give me both.

 

[kid2]

I think I'm narrowing it down to MP53, JPX800PRo, AP2 or even the Cally Razr X Tour. I'm after performance and forgiveness - maybe going back to Callaway can give me both.

All good clubs Murg..
My dad recently changed from a set of i15's to the GI version of the Callaways you spoke of above...I think they are just Razr X's..
Nice clubs i must say..He saw a difference from his first few shots with them.

I guess thats where i also benefit with the Pings i have.
The i10's in Pings description of them say that they are for the player that doesnt want the oversize irons but still need added forgiveness on their off days...
They are working a treat for me at the moment anyway..Fingers crossed...I sorted out a couple of small issues i had with my swing and im hitting them much more solidly.