Colin L
Tour Winner
I think you are thinking of the fact that when one player of a side is furthest from the hole, the partners can decide that the one nearer the hole can play first. But that is when it is the side's turn to play.
FC's ball in the way
- Thread starter chellie
- Start date
Foxholer
Blackballed
And in 4bbb match play
22-2 - Ball Interfering with Play
Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that another ball might interfere with his play, he may have it lifted.
A ball lifted under this Rule must be replaced (see Rule 20-3). The ball must not be cleaned, unless it lies on the putting green (see Rule 21).
In stroke play, a player required to lift his ball may play first rather than lift the ball.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
this is rubbish and represtents mental aberration, but I'm not sure what caused the interference in my thinking at the time! Sorry all. Cheers MashieN :thup:
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
So I am playing in the final pair of the club championship - a stroke play competition - and both my F/C and I are on the last green. It is between the two of us. I have a three foot putt to win the championship - my F/C has a one foot putt - his ball is on my line. I was last to play so he cannot 'finish off'. Both our putts are straightforward.
I ask my opponent to mark his ball as it is on my line. He can refuse and tell me that he can take his putt first? He holes out - suddenly my three footer has to be holed for me to win - and that three foot putt isn't quite so straightforward...
Have I got that right?
Foxholer
Blackballed
Yes. Correct.
Just to put it into perspective:
How long have you been playing? How often has your 'what if' happened to you? Or anyone you know?
rulefan
Tour Winner
The answer to the question in your last paragraph is yes.
However, "I was last to play so he cannot 'finish off'" has no basis in the rules. It doesn't matter who played last, it's who is furthest away.
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
He's a foot away. You have to assume he will make the putt. Nothing has really changed.
However he might miss because he's rushing. You now have 2 for it
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Just on the 'finish off' point - I thought that in stokeplay - which is the scenario I am painting - the player who putts up can choose to finish off if he so wishes to do - though we always ask our F/C out of politeness we actually don't have to.
@Foxholer - 40 yrs and indeed - never. However, it was the extreme scenario I could think of to pull out the ruling.
More likely would be a scenario where, in a medal say, I was 20ft away and my F/Cs ball was half way between me and the hole and a fair bit to the side of my line - let's say 6ft. Now I will usually ask my F/C to mark and lift his ball as it is in my putting field of view. But the rule is clear. He doesn't have to mark and lift it. And if I don't like it there, then tough - my recourse is that I can ask him to putt out. But if I ask him to putt out must he do so?
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Colin L
Tour Winner
Foxholer
Blackballed
No you can't!So the second part is irrelevnt.
We may have found the source of all the golf Rules myths!
Colin L
Tour Winner
Which Rule is that? Not 22-2 which is quoted above which says clearly that you can have the ball lifted and marked.
Pro Zach
Assistant Pro
Your first point is not true. The player who putts up cannot, by the rules, choose to finish off. It is not his turn to play because he is not furthest from the hole.
So if you are 20' from the hole and your FC is 10' from the hole it is your turn to play. If you putt up too 4'' from the hole it is his turn to play. If you tap it in you have broken the rules. But there is no penalty for this in stroke play. However you can leave your ball 4'' from the hole. If your FC is on the green, he would be very confident or mad to putt without asking you to mark your ball, as it is a penalty if he hits it. When he asks you to mark it you then have the choice to play it. I believe this is why people think they can 'finish off'.
However, if out of politeness you ask to 'finish off' and your FC agrees then you have agreed to waive the rules. The penalty is disqualification, but only if you know you have agreed to waive the rules.
For the reason above you cannot ask him to putt out. You can ask him to mark his ball. Then he has the choice to mark it or play it.
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
What about Decision 10-2c/2 - Competitors in Stroke Play Agree to Play Out of Turn But Not for Purpose of Giving One of Them an Advantage
Q. In stroke play, A and B agree to play out of turn at the 10th hole to save time. There is no penalty under Rule 10-2c because they did not do so in order to give one of them an advantage. However, are they liable to disqualification under Rule 1-3 for agreeing to exclude the operation of Rule 10-2a or 10-2b as the case may be?
A. No. Rule 10-2c specifically governs and permits the procedure in stroke play. Accordingly, Rule 1-3 does not apply. As to match play, see Decision 10-1a/3. (Revised)
Tapping in saves time with no advantage to anyone so in my view no DQ.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
agreed :thup:
Pro Zach
Assistant Pro
Thanks for that Mashie and apologies to SLH.
According to the decision 10-2c/2 rule 10-2c specifically governs and permits the procedure in stroke play. This is 10-2c:-
c. Playing Out of Turn
If a competitor plays out of turn, there is no penalty and the ball is played as it lies. If, however, the Committee determines that competitors have agreed to play out of turn to give one of them an advantage, they are disqualified.
Personally, not seeing anything in rule 1-3 that suggests you can waive a rule because there is no penalty attached to it or because no one gained an advantage then I would struggle to interpret 10-2c in that way.
Interpreting it as 10-2c/2 suggests means that any agreement to play out of turn would have to be reported to the committee for them to decide if it was done to gain an advantage. If it is not reported to the committee then clearly it is the competitors that have decided if they did it to gain an advantage.
I've decided to do what it appears 99% of golfers I play with have done and stop trying to understand the rules. Hopefully at some point the R&A will see what an overly complicated set of rules they have created and start again.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
1. 1-3 doesn't reference waiving rules - Players must not agree to exclude the operation of any Rule or to waive any penalty incurred.
2. 10-2c is specifically referenced under the penalty clause for 1-3.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Though @Foxholer said
The player has the right to have the ball lifted.
The FC has a choice. He may either mark and lift or play first.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Ok - so on the tap in I am now clear on why and how the rules support what we do 'in practice'.
On the separate ball question of being in my field of view. If it is me to play I can ask for a F/C or opponents ball to be marked, regardless of where it is on or off the green. But from what @foxholder has said, if I ask for his ball to be marked I hand the option to play next to my F/C or opponent? That doesn't seem right - and that's not what we do. Though just because we don't do it doesn't mean we can't.
On the separate ball question of being in my field of view. If it is me to play I can ask for a F/C or opponents ball to be marked, regardless of where it is on or off the green. But from what @foxholder has said, if I ask for his ball to be marked I hand the option to play next to my F/C or opponent? That doesn't seem right - and that's not what we do. Though just because we don't do it doesn't mean we can't.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
1. not opponents, as already made clear in this thread surely????
2. why isn't it right? in the sort of situations that this occurs the player is more likely to learn from your shot than not, so he gives up that advantage rather than gaining one by playing.
3. basically the reasons for the rule being this way are related to both speed of play and giving the player the opportunity to avoid 'risk' associated with moving his ball and having to replace it.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Sorry if I missed it Duncan. So on hopefully closing my uncertainty on the mark and lift. You (the rules) are saying that in a match I can require my opponent to mark and lift his ball regardless of where it is on the green (Rule 22/2 decision). If it was strokeplay my opponent has the option to play first if I ask him to mark and lift.
