EU Referendum

[BesCumber]

An interesting read.. :thup:
As well as a short historical perspective, it would appear we also have trouble grasping irony, of course i'am assuming everyone actually read it.
For me, one of the most disturbing points was..
3 Most people don't read, think, challenge, or hear opposing views...(apathy, appeasement) ??

This is how people like Trump become President, and how a country of generally intelligent people ignore the majority of expert advise, and vote to leave the club.

Perhaps now is'nt the time for a nicer brand of politics.
Are you listening Mr Corbyn ???

Of course these are my views, not yours, and as such are ment to offend no one..
Er... hang on..

 

[SocketRocket]

Yup.. Got it in a chip paper .. Surrey chippys used to use the Telegraph but now use such low brow trash.. Times are tough, must be that Brexit thingi...

You're way off the mark, it's got worse since Elvis started working there. Did he give you a rendition of his 1965 Harum Scarum :rofl:

 

[SocketRocket]

Thank you for that, scary comparisons.

View attachment 20291

Or is it Dooned!

 

[vkurup]

That old chip paper. Get with it your Yurt Dwelling Yogurt Knitting Amigo already posted it and it was rubbish then

I must say that I havent read every posts on this thread, so might have been a repost.

Just out of curiosity... why do Brexiters want to ignore every expert opinion - and I am not talking about this particular conspiracy theory. Do we say that nationalism has trumped expert opinions. Or in the words of the wise Brexit leader, 'we have too many experts' and I guess he will visit the Gardener instead of a Doctor when he has a tummy ache. I am sure Remain are equally capable of playing the rational/economics card. In the words of another man..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-c6HDo7pNI

But again what would he know, he is only serving his notice period and in the words of another fearless Brexit leader he had an issue with Britain due to his past.

 

[SocketRocket]

I must say that I havent read every posts on this thread, so might have been a repost.

Just out of curiosity... why do Brexiters want to ignore every expert opinion - and I am not talking about this particular conspiracy theory. Do we say that nationalism has trumped expert opinions. Or in the words of the wise Brexit leader, 'we have too many experts' and I guess he will visit the Gardener instead of a Doctor when he has a tummy ache. I am sure Remain are equally capable of playing the rational/economics card. In the words of another man..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-c6HDo7pNI

But again what would he know, he is only serving his notice period and in the words of another fearless Brexit leader he had an issue with Britain due to his past.

If it's possible to have a grown up debate on the subject then I am more than willing but when it gets into the calls of Racism, xenophobia, uneducated morons etc then sensible discussion takes a back row.

You must be aware that people are wired up differently when it comes to decision making. OK, some issues are not for sensible debate, it's black, it's white etc, others are very subjective: I don't like the taste of this, I like that colour or car, I don't like marmite, why on earth would anyone vote for Jeremy Corbyn etc. Our view on the world is shaped by many things: Our upbringing, the culture of our countries, how we are influenced by others, what we think is right and wrong and so on and so forth. Another influence is the mistrust of politicians and others who have vested interests in trying to direct the populace into thinking and acting in ways that creates and amplifies power for these elite classes. In my humble opinion the EU is a classic case of this and is a force with an objective of taking the freedoms and liberty from the people of europe and replacing it with their aim to create a single undemocratic empire.

Hows that for a start.

 

[Hacker Khan]

If it's possible to have a grown up debate on the subject then I am more than willing but when it gets into the calls of Racism, xenophobia, uneducated morons etc then sensible discussion takes a back row.

You must be aware that people are wired up differently when it comes to decision making. OK, some issues are not for sensible debate, it's black, it's white etc, others are very subjective: I don't like the taste of this, I like that colour or car, I don't like marmite, why on earth would anyone vote for Jeremy Corbyn etc. Our view on the world is shaped by many things: Our upbringing, the culture of our countries, how we are influenced by others, what we think is right and wrong and so on and so forth. Another influence is the mistrust of politicians and others who have vested interests in trying to direct the populace into thinking and acting in ways that creates and amplifies power for these elite classes. In my humble opinion the EU is a classic case of this and is a force with an objective of taking the freedoms and liberty from the people of europe and replacing it with their aim to create a single undemocratic empire.

Hows that for a start.

But enough about BoJo and Gove and their attempt to use the referendum to become PM, what about the EU?

 

[Hobbit]

Brexiters look away now..

I am sure they would challenge the conspiracy, the mans qualification or the validity of the argument.
Irrespective of all that, this makes some interesting and dark reading.

https://medium.com/@theonlytoby/his...ll-happen-next-with-brexit-trump-a3fefd154714

It is a good piece of work at comparing events and what led up to them, but it falls down in making projections. Things aren't cyclical as he suggests but operate more as a spiral, either up or down depending on how good the decision making is.

To take another perspective, a European historian has suggested that the EU is in danger of becoming another Soviet state with a central government getting further and further away from what its constituent states want. They had their conflicts with Hungary/Czech/Poland. Truthfully, we're already seeing that in Brexit AND what some of the eastern European states are doing over immigration, a basic fundamental of European law.

As a Remainer, the federalism concerned me greatly. I was for staying in and changing it. Hopefully, some good will come from Brexit, and maybe some of the lukewarm Brexiters will head back into the Remain camp if the federalism is dialled back.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

GSK announce that they are going to continue with their investment in the UK

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36901027

Excellent news - but please let not one swallow makes a summer.

Their decision was a balance of the positives of doing business in the UK, tax regime, skilled workforce etc - that even Brexit cannot undermine (at the moment) - against the negatives that GSK recognise are possible. The negatives have not gone away. Let's hope many others take a similar view.

 

[MarkE]

GSK announce that they are going to continue with their investment in the UK

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36901027

Excellent news - but please let not one swallow makes a summer.

Their decision was a balance of the positives of doing business in the UK, tax regime, skilled workforce etc - that even Brexit cannot undermine (at the moment) - against the negatives that GSK recognise are possible. The negatives have not gone away. Let's hope many others take a similar view.

Excellent news indeed. No caveats needed though and it shows the UK will continue to be a prime investment opportunity. Also news today that the economy unexpectedly grew by 0.6%. Before anyone mentions it, I know this figure is from April-June, leading up to the referendum but still positive news. We were fed the line that the economy was already suffering at this time because of the uncertainty pre referendum but these figures rather refutes those fears.

 

[Hobbit]

Excellent news indeed. No caveats needed though and it shows the UK will continue to be a prime investment opportunity. Also news today that the economy unexpectedly grew by 0.6%. Before anyone mentions it, I know this figure is from April-June, leading up to the referendum but still positive news. We were fed the line that the economy was already suffering at this time because of the uncertainty pre referendum but these figures rather refutes those fears.

Let's not also mention that apart from a blip in housing sales that lasted a week business is still there at pre-Brexit levels.

 

[Foxholer]

GSK announce that they are going to continue with their investment in the UK

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36901027

Excellent news - but please let not one swallow makes a summer.

Their decision was a balance of the positives of doing business in the UK, tax regime, skilled workforce etc - that even Brexit cannot undermine (at the moment) - against the negatives that GSK recognise are possible. The negatives have not gone away. Let's hope many others take a similar view.

Certainly good news!

But likely to also have been influenced by both the perceived length of time that will be involved in Brexit negotiations AND the cost of upping sticks an moving elsewhere - when the details of any Brexit deal are not yet known!

It's 'new' (as opposed to expansion of existing ones) investment by the likes of Asian car makers that will be the 'real' barometer!

 

[SocketRocket]

But enough about BoJo and Gove and their attempt to use the referendum to become PM, what about the EU?

Ok, so it's not possible to have a grown up debate on the subject with you. Maybe you could just stand aside along with your juvenile comments, but alas I know that's not going to happen as it's your lazy way of making an argument. Shame really as you are capable of better

 

[Hacker Khan]

Ok, so it's not possible to have a grown up debate on the subject with you. Maybe you could just stand aside along with your juvenile comments, but alas I know that's not going to happen as it's your lazy way of making an argument. Shame really as you are capable of better

Argue the point, not against the person making it.

 

[BesCumber]

Excellent news indeed. No caveats needed though and it shows the UK will continue to be a prime investment opportunity. Also news today that the economy unexpectedly grew by 0.6%. Before anyone mentions it, I know this figure is from April-June, leading up to the referendum but still positive news. We were fed the line that the economy was already suffering at this time because of the uncertainty pre referendum but these figures rather refutes those fears.

Perhaps I've been looking in the wrong place Mark, but all the forcasts i can find for this period, were expecting an average growth of 2%. (Uk Gov)
Slightly deflated as you say because of the uncertainty.
Still any growth is better than no growth.

 

[Foxholer]

It is a good piece of work at comparing events and what led up to them, but it falls down in making projections. Things aren't cyclical as he suggests but operate more as a spiral, either up or down depending on how good the decision making is.

To take another perspective, a European historian has suggested that the EU is in danger of becoming another Soviet state with a central government getting further and further away from what its constituent states want. They had their conflicts with Hungary/Czech/Poland. Truthfully, we're already seeing that in Brexit AND what some of the eastern European states are doing over immigration, a basic fundamental of European law.

As a Remainer, the federalism concerned me greatly. I was for staying in and changing it. Hopefully, some good will come from Brexit, and maybe some of the lukewarm Brexiters will head back into the Remain camp if the federalism is dialled back.

I pretty much agree with this!

I do think the argument that creeping federalism being bad has been over-emphasised. Any excess can (and should) be challenged in the ECJ which, as a judicial institution, I have more respect for than the so-called 'faceless civil servants' that develop/propose the laws!), but that was an 'advantage' the Brexit folk always had and used effectively!

...Another influence is the mistrust of politicians and others who have vested interests in trying to direct the populace into thinking and acting in ways that creates and amplifies power for these elite classes. In my humble opinion the EU is a classic case of this and is a force with an objective of taking the freedoms and liberty from the people of europe and replacing it with their aim to create a single undemocratic empire.
...

Ii all depends on how you define and measure 'democracy'!

This referendum is actually the first opportunity I have had to have an 'equal vote' - or indeed a 'vote that could matter'! In all other elections - and there have been plenty of them - I have really had no say, because one of the candidates was guaranteed to win because of their overwhelming existing majority! That doesn't seem to be particularly 'democratic' to/for me!

I don't actually have any (well, not many) issues with the 'political class'! As long as it's not corrupt! For the same reason, I'm 'happy' for politicians (anywhere) to be paid more/appropriately, the equivalent of, say, a specific Civil Servant, but forbidden (with threat of dismissal if discovered) from any extra-officio income not publicly declared, both on a 'register of interests' and when speaking on a matter where the related party is involved!

As for the removal of freedoms and liberty, the removal of 'freedom of movement' could easily be described as a major removal of freedom/liberty! So Brexit could well actually be acting counter to Sockets's desires - though I suspect there's a 'within reason' clause that he hasn't mentioned!

 

[Foxholer]

Perhaps I've been looking in the wrong place Mark, but all the forcasts i can find for this period, were expecting an average growth of 2%. (Uk Gov)
Slightly deflated as you say because of the uncertainty.
Still any growth is better than no growth.

Are you sure you weren't comparing the growth over the Quarter with the expectation for the Year?!

 

[BesCumber]

Are you sure you weren't comparing the growth over the Quarter with the expectation for the Year?!

Quite possible Foxholer, they're from the OBR so i shall check and get back to you. :thup:

 

[SocketRocket]

Argue the point, not against the person making it.

I am more than happy arguing the point when the person/people you debate with make a genuine effort to discuss the subject matter without using a constant approach of sarcastic and satirical comments/links to satirical websites. A modicum of humour is always welcome but not when used to circumvent the debate and score points.

 

[BesCumber]

Are you sure you weren't comparing the growth over the Quarter with the expectation for the Year?!

Doh!!!
No fool like an old fool...
Still the Imf don't seam too optimistic for the future. Might just be sour grapes though for getting this forcast wrong.
The Imf that is, not me.. I'm not important...

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Perhaps I've been looking in the wrong place Mark, but all the forcasts i can find for this period, were expecting an average growth of 2%. (Uk Gov)
Slightly deflated as you say because of the uncertainty.
Still any growth is better than no growth.

The forecast was for 0.2%, so 0.6% represents a significant improvement over projection.