EU Referendum

[vkurup]

Nothing new to add to the debate today but thought I should take up 3000th post on this thread.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

The Wee Ginger Dug is spot on with his referendum assessment.


https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/...rd-missing-between-mother-and-of-parliaments/

 

[MegaSteve]

In the globalised economy I doubt we'll ever be able to compete making 'commodities' - our labour cost is just too high. We have to continue manufacturing high quality advanced stuff requiring a highly skilled workforce - as we currently do. Leavers seem to hearken back to 'halcyon' days when we had an Empire and a still largely 'dependent' Commonwealth of the 50s and 60s - and so had a ready market for our goods that we controlled 100% along with a largely closed UK market. Both of which no longer exist and never will return.

Then we are bugger'd...

Because we wish to be world class tree huggers energy costs don't help and nor does sky high rents due to property values figuring high in the economy... Certainly costs that impact heavily on the small business I work for...

We need to at least get back to making 'stuff' for our own infrastructure... Train bogie's being a recent[ish] contentious point... And, as for all those windfarms that now surround us [as well as being blots on the landscape]... Where are they made? I know the blades aren't made here anymore as a mate worked for Veritas, on the IoW, making them before the place was shut down and moved overseas..

Anyway, all a bit academic, as I've being saying recently even a vote for exit I don't believe we are going anywhere...

 

[Old Skier]

And so I hear Gove and Bojo now both proclaiming that they are pro immigration. Too late lads - you've opened Pandora's box. I suspect that many Leavers will be listening and thinking to themselves 'they don't mean what they say - they are only saying it because of the murder of the MP'



I have to admit to being rather fearful of the consequences of a Brexit as my feeling is that they know not what they do.

1. Ben Bradshaw making more of the murder of an MP than any of the leavers are.

2. Can you explain what the future holds if we remain in the EU.

3. Are you able to explain what has changed since last year when the Government said that we would leave the EU if we did not get sanctions (yet to be ratified) that were put forward.

 

[User62651]

My feelings as a neutral on this is that Leave's momentum has stalled, they were roaring along last week but Cameron did quite well (for a change) on QT last night and althought it's a very sensitive subject the death of the MP will rally support from neutrals to Remain I believe, hard to believe but the actions of that Mair loony may swing a national vote. Also time and again in referendums when polls say it's close the status quo prevails as ultimately people fear large scale change/uncertainty.
Personally still undecided, a weaker pound actually helps my industry and we have no immigration pressure at all up here so Brexit may not harm me but looking to the bigger picture for everyone I'm beginning to lean a little to the Remain camp, over half the immigrants are non EU so even with Brexit how is it going to help with that, and for those saying our borders aren't secure, the reason the Calais jungle exists is because our borders are fairly secure, to me too many people are being legally accepted into the UK from outwith the EU, not illegally.
If Cameron is correct in saying several other Euro economies are picking up then perhaps the EU migrants will be less inclined to come here and be more evenly spread across the continent moving forward - or is that just more Cameron BS? I don't know, feel abstention may be my only recourse.

 

[Old Skier]

Neither the pound or the stock market are at the level of March this year. Mine and many of my muckers tend to feel that the markets play the game for the own return with no thought of what may or may not happen to the every day Jo on the street.

They can bankrupt a country but still come back as millionaires'.

 

[Crazyface]

Cameron, on the bit I saw, was shown to be the liar we know he is. He did not answer one question that was put to him....and wasn't chased on this. We've got assurances from EU leaders that they will vote for the sanctions, oh yeah? I shouted the Chamberlain quote at the TV and luckilly someone on the TV heard me and used the same quote at him. So they can change their minds, as they will if we vote to stay. I also noted he acknowledged, well sort of, that we are a net contributor to the EU finances and are helping the rubbish countries who obviously want to join as they get all the money, whilst we lose out. Just why should we be helping the poorer countries? We were poor and rubbish once, but we pulled our socks up and built a, once great, country whilst they just sat around lazing in the sun. Why didn't they do the same hundreds of years ago? Because they are actually lazy people and want things for nothing....and now are getting it!!!!!! Crazy!!!!Oh and Cameron says that under his new agreement, and EU migrant that does not find work in 6 months can be send back. LOL. We've never been able to send anyone back. Oh, and why can't we implement his "New deal" when he negotiated it.
We'd have more faith in what he says if he could demonstrate that these thing were happening now. Oh, oh and Labour backing Cameron, just what is that about and Corbin changing his veiws.
Despite what you might think, I've been waiting for the stay campaign to show me why, they can't and haven't. This is why we MUST VOTE OUT !!!!!!!!!!

 

[drdel]

BThose in the political bubble of Westminster have shown themselves to be incapable of rising above the back stabbing 'debating' theatre and treating the country's needs above their own selfish ambitions.

Before this charade I was a Cameron supporter but I'm afraid he has failed to act as I think a PM should. The fact that he has now chosen to capitalise of the death of a fellow MP in the way he has I find despicable. Osborne has demonstrated an ability to be vindictive and incapable of arithmetic - a skill lacking in the Brexit camp. Mr Corbyn seems determined to say nothing.

Its also interesting to see that Baroness Warsi has just decided to change sides - after all this time and opportunity to come to a rational decision she has decided that despite the long term impact on the UK's future the contents of one poster is more important.

For my own part I still find the debate worryingly immature, as an economist I can see that the EU is going to need/consume huge amounts of cash (which the ECB is busy printing and raise debt) of which only a few member states will pay. None of the new eastern countries and the southern states have any. So if the UK stays in the current contribution is going to rise very significantly and our rebate is likely to progressively vanish.

If the UK leaves there will be uncertainty and the markets will take the chance to speculate at the £s expense and profit take. The IMF will play games just because they can.

It is obvious that in some parts of the UK immigration is causing major issues because integration has not happened and so some urban areas have become 'nationalistic' enclaves with high crime rates and further segregation. Even some police chiefs admit to no-go areas but that while that should not tar all immigrants it is an influencing factor.

I suspect that irrespective of the vote not a lot will change there is too much momentum in the Establishment and the corporate sector that work-arounds will be sorted.

Either way it will be the less well off that will feel the sharp end because the lower social sectors cannot plan against pension, tax or health care changes that either an increasing (Remain) EU debt or a (Brexit) temporary growth hiccup will cause.

 

[Old Skier]

A good post.

On the Baroness, as some one who has (in my short memory) never declared which way she would vote I think the change of mind guff is just that. Who knows what anyone will vote, we can all say one thing and vote another.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

A good post.

On the Baroness, as some one who has (in my short memory) never declared which way she would vote I think the change of mind guff is just that. Who knows what anyone will vote, we can all say one thing and vote another.

On the Baroness - surprise, surprise - Farage telling us it's all been engineered by a desperate Cameron - and so we can all just ignore what she says

Same old same old from Leave - who (paraphrasing Ian Birrell i today) have ramped up the rhetoric against migrants, scapegoated refugees, traduced politicians, trashed expertise, tarnished a religion - to what end? So that at a time when unemployment is at it's lowest for more than a decade, we flirt with wrecking our economy simply to stop foreigners coming here to work

And that is so depressing and so sad.

 

[Old Skier]

On the Baroness - surprise, surprise - Farage telling us it's all been engineered by a desperate Cameron - and so we can all just ignore what she says

Same old same old from Leave - who (paraphrasing Ian Birrell i today) have ramped up the rhetoric against migrants, scapegoated refugees, traduced politicians, trashed expertise, tarnished a religion - to what end? So that at a time when unemployment is at it's lowest for more than a decade, we flirt with wrecking our economy simply to stop foreigners coming here to work

And that is so depressing and so sad.

Any chance of a answer to my questions or as normal are you ignoring anything that is put to you.

 

[Foxholer]

Neither the pound or the stock market are at the level of March this year. Mine and many of my muckers tend to feel that the markets play the game for the own return with no thought of what may or may not happen to the every day Jo on the street.

They can bankrupt a country but still come back as millionaires'.

That's absolutely correct! And if they fail to do so when they have the opportunity, then they are not doing their jobs properly - so should lose them! That's the nature of 'markets' - at least at the 'bleeding edge'!

 

[Old Skier]

Worth a listening - nothing changes http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3cd_1466355619

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

1. Ben Bradshaw making more of the murder of an MP than any of the leavers are.

2. Can you explain what the future holds if we remain in the EU.

3. Are you able to explain what has changed since last year when the Government said that we would leave the EU if we did not get sanctions (yet to be ratified) that were put forward.

1. It is Leave who have opened the Pandora's box of immigration - I'm not interested in their sanctimonious whinging
2. I don't have to explain. I trust the judgment of 10 Nobel Prize winning economists today stating the case for Remain and warning of the damage Brexit will cause to the UK economy in the short and long term With their views simply adding further credence to the views of the vast majority of economists, economic institutions, and business organisations stating the case.
3. That's politics - and that was then, this is now. Besides I didn't vote for them - I don't have to explain or justify anything that the Tories might have said a year ago.

 

[Old Skier]

1. It is Leave who have opened the Pandora's box of immigration.
2. I trust the judgment of 10 Nobel Prize winning economists today stating the case for Remain and warning of the damage Brexit will cause to the UK economy in the short and long term With their views simply adding further credence to the views of the vast majority of economists, economic institutions, and business organisations.
3. That's politics - and that was then, this is now. Besides I didn't vote for them - I don't have to justify anything that the Tories might have said a year ago.

So no answers then

Bradshaw was spewing his blame on the leave campaign hours after the ladies death.

i have not asked about the economics more your input on what the future holds if we stay in, but like us all you don't know so refuse to answere.

So when we have to go through this again in a year or twos time if remain win and you vote out your response will be that was then, this is now. You didn't have to vote for them, whoever them was but as the now leader of Labour was also on the out bandwagon I can only presume you didn't vote or voted green/UKIP.

 

[woody69]

Cameron, on the bit I saw, was shown to be the liar we know he is. He did not answer one question that was put to him....and wasn't chased on this. We've got assurances from EU leaders that they will vote for the sanctions, oh yeah? I shouted the Chamberlain quote at the TV and luckilly someone on the TV heard me and used the same quote at him. So they can change their minds, as they will if we vote to stay. I also noted he acknowledged, well sort of, that we are a net contributor to the EU finances and are helping the rubbish countries who obviously want to join as they get all the money, whilst we lose out. Just why should we be helping the poorer countries? We were poor and rubbish once, but we pulled our socks up and built a, once great, country whilst they just sat around lazing in the sun. Why didn't they do the same hundreds of years ago? Because they are actually lazy people and want things for nothing....and now are getting it!!!!!! Crazy!!!!Oh and Cameron says that under his new agreement, and EU migrant that does not find work in 6 months can be send back. LOL. We've never been able to send anyone back. Oh, and why can't we implement his "New deal" when he negotiated it.
We'd have more faith in what he says if he could demonstrate that these thing were happening now. Oh, oh and Labour backing Cameron, just what is that about and Corbin changing his veiws.
Despite what you might think, I've been waiting for the stay campaign to show me why, they can't and haven't. This is why we MUST VOTE OUT !!!!!!!!!!

You seem to be getting confused. You are not voting for a person, you are voting for Britain.

You are also confused as we can send a jobless migrant home after 6 months.

You also paint a rather odd view on "helping the poorer countries" - "pulled our socks up and built a once great country whilst they just say around lazing in the sun"? You're on a wind up aren't you?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So no answers then

Bradshaw was spewing his blame on the leave campaign hours after the ladies death.

i have not asked about the economics more your input on what the future holds if we stay in, but like us all you don't know so refuse to answere.

So when we have to go through this again in a year or twos time if remain win and you vote out your response will be that was then, this is now. You didn't have to vote for them, whoever them was but as the now leader of Labour was also on the out bandwagon I can only presume you didn't vote or voted green/UKIP.

I think I have answered your questions fully. Leave opened the Pandora's box on immigration, making it open season on immigration and migrants; failing to rebutt the most ludicrous statements made by supporters of Leave for fear of losing their vote - and hence allowing a horrible and disturbing 'them and us' environment to develop.

What don't you get about me saying that I trust in the economists - hells teeth - I am not an expert - why should I even pretend to have any idea? I trust in those who do - and in whose expertise we, governments and bodies who need a view of the future always look to - except if you support Leave when all such expert opinion is rubbished as ill-informed, self-serving or a conspiracy. This woul dbe quite pathetic if it wasn't so sad and dispiriting.

What Cameron said a year ago doesn't concern me - I am listening to the experts, Cameron isn't one.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Simple question; anyone know if the result of this referendum is legally binding?

 

[ger147]

Simple question; anyone know if the result of this referendum is legally binding?

No it's not.

 

[Blue in Munich]

No it's not.

Thanks. So "Call me Dave" has given us a vote on something that he is opposed to, and is under no obligation to invoke the wishes of the masses should the decision be Leave? That's pretty much a foregone conclusion then……..

Has there ever been a bigger waste of time in British politics?