EU Referendum

[Oohmeoldbacksknackered]

Are you suggesting that these things will improve if we leave? As a chair of a governing board I am interested in how leaving the EU will improve the' elitist education system that is failing millions'.

Absolutely probably maybe not



BUT....

Idiocy is doing the same thing and expecting different results and all that.

And we have to start somewhere:

I'm not even sure that leaving is the best option, I'm just sure that all the arguments I've heard recently are pretty facile

I think we need to get our infrastructure right before we worry about who's the bigger dick - Cameron or Johnson

Quick aside.... As a chair, how do you think we could start making a good education more even? Would taking away the charity status of private schools generate money that could be reinvested in the state system?

 

[SocketRocket]

There's one glaring inaccuracy early on in the article in relation to Switzerland's agreement on the free movement of people. According to the article, Switzerland's agreement "is static" and hasn't changed since the day it was signed. Its changed twice in the last two years.

When the EU started negotiations with Turkey on the free movement of people, Switzerland said it wouldn't agree to this. The EU withheld science project funding until the Swiss backed down.

Looks like Das Spiegel is as accurate as the UK's Red Tops!!!

As an aside, David Cameron once again, on the Andrew Marr show this morning, said that there's no way Turkey will be able to join the EU for decades. I wish Andrew Marr had then asked about the two senior Civil Servants who are currently in Ankara negotiating a visa-free deal. Maybe they won't join but it looks like they don't have to... some great articles in today's Times about the proposed legislation currently being suspended till July so as not to give the Brexiters any more leverage!!

Cameron is a slippery Eel. He didn't say he would veto Turkey's membership, when he says decades he is probably talking about less than 10 years, he is not mentioning whether he will allow Turkish citizens the right to visa access to the UK even though we are not part of Schengen. On the Marr show he said he would stay on as PM if we voted to Leave the EU but I am sure he would only want to do that so he could negotiate a free movement of people and high UK contributions to retain access to the Single Market. I have a feeling Cameron has a personal interest in the EU and this is tied to his wish not to stand as PM after the current term, I think there will be a lucrative job on offer that will set him up for life.

 

[SocketRocket]

Are you suggesting that these things will improve if we leave? As a chair of a governing board I am interested in how leaving the EU will improve the' elitist education system that is failing millions'.

Maybe you can explain how staying in will improve it? If we have any sovereignty at all then these issues are our own business and I hope it will continue to be so whatever way the referendum goes. I dread the day when the EU takes over our Education system.

 

[Foxholer]

Quick aside.... As a chair, how do you think we could start making a good education more even? Would taking away the charity status of private schools generate money that could be reinvested in the state system?

To me, you are looking at it the wrong way around!

Instead of reducing the ability of private schools to produce an excellent education, the solution is to raise the standard of the education produced in the state system!

And that could even be by requiring the private system to provide a significant number of 'public'y funded' places!

But none of the things you are moaning about are really directly related to whether or not UK is in the EU or not...so back to that....

 

[Hacker Khan]

Maybe you can explain how staying in will improve it? If we have any sovereignty at all then these issues are our own business and I hope it will continue to be so whatever way the referendum goes. I dread the day when the EU takes over our Education system.

I don't, and that is kind of the point. Just listing a bunch of generic ills we are allegedly suffering from and then saying that they might change if we come out of the EU is to me a bit silly. And then asking someone to point out how these ills, which no one has directly linked to the EU, will get better if we stay in in kind of compounding the sillyness.

From my experience the EU has very little to do with UK education policy, so coming out or staying in will have minor,if any impact. At best the main impact I can think of for education will be that some schools will struggle to get teachers as there is a teacher shortage and some of that is filled with teachers from the EU. Some schools rely on the kids of seasonal migrant workers to boost their numbers so they may struggle and I imagine it will become harder for students to study in universities in EU and for UK universities to partner up with EU universities in EU funded projects. But none of that is fact and it is not really a major issue in my decision.

Increasingly education policy is becoming more and more politically ideologically driven (forced acedemisation anybody) and unless the EU just becomes one big state I expect it will stay that way and become even more so.

 

[Hobbit]

I don't, and that is kind of the point. Just listing a bunch of generic ills we are allegedly suffering from and then saying that they might change if we come out of the EU is to me a bit silly. And then asking someone to point out how these ills, which no one has directly linked to the EU, will get better if we stay in in kind of compounding the sillyness.

From my experience the EU has very little to do with UK education policy, so coming out or staying in will have minor,if any impact. At best the main impact I can think of for education will be that some schools will struggle to get teachers as there is a teacher shortage and some of that is filled with teachers from the EU. Some schools rely on the kids of seasonal migrant workers to boost their numbers so they may struggle and I imagine it will become harder for students to study in universities in EU and for UK universities to partner up with EU universities in EU funded projects. But none of that is fact and it is not really a major issue in my decision.

Increasingly education policy is becoming more and more politically ideologically driven (forced acedemisation anybody) and unless the EU just becomes one big state I expect it will stay that way and become even more so.

Excellent, balanced post.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Excellent, balanced post.

Is it? I'm sorry, I will try again with half baked conspiracy theories and regurgitation of simplified political scaremongering soundbites if you want.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Absolutely probably maybe not



BUT....

Idiocy is doing the same thing and expecting different results and all that.

And we have to start somewhere:

I'm not even sure that leaving is the best option, I'm just sure that all the arguments I've heard recently are pretty facile

I think we need to get our infrastructure right before we worry about who's the bigger dick - Cameron or Johnson

Quick aside.... As a chair, how do you think we could start making a good education more even? Would taking away the charity status of private schools generate money that could be reinvested in the state system?

You'd need more than a post in a golf forum to solve the problems of the education system and much cleverer people than me have tried and failed. But just one thing, most schools will have to become academies by 2022. And all academies are registered charities. Not sure if you are talking about a tax thing? If so then I expect the monies raised by taxing private schools would be a drop in the ocean and not really significant in any way. There is actually money around in education but it is being thrown at free schools and academies and increasingly diverted away from local authorities education departments and therefore schools that are still maintained by local authorities.

Private schools are what they are, places where people pay a lot of money for their children to get good academic qualifications plus arguably at some schools additional networking benefits later on in life. No government is going to do much to them as most of their kids went to them, plus they do get results which makes our education system better in international comparisons between countries.

What I would argue does need to be done more is sharing of best practice between these places and state schools. This does happen more and more but it can always improve. And that will have a much bigger impact than worrying about their tax status. But to reiterate, bugger all to do with the EU so last I will say on it in this thread.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Is it? I'm sorry, I will try again with half baked conspiracy theories and regurgitation of simplified political scaremongering soundbites if you want.

Yes please, I always enjoy those.

Mr Gove promising Scotland it's own immigration policy after Brexit.......aye that will be right then.
We all know how honest Westminster government ministers promises are.

 

[SocketRocket]

I don't, and that is kind of the point. Just listing a bunch of generic ills we are allegedly suffering from and then saying that they might change if we come out of the EU is to me a bit silly. And then asking someone to point out how these ills, which no one has directly linked to the EU, will get better if we stay in in kind of compounding the sillyness.

From my experience the EU has very little to do with UK education policy, so coming out or staying in will have minor,if any impact. At best the main impact I can think of for education will be that some schools will struggle to get teachers as there is a teacher shortage and some of that is filled with teachers from the EU. Some schools rely on the kids of seasonal migrant workers to boost their numbers so they may struggle and I imagine it will become harder for students to study in universities in EU and for UK universities to partner up with EU universities in EU funded projects. But none of that is fact and it is not really a major issue in my decision.

Increasingly education policy is becoming more and more politically ideologically driven (forced acedemisation anybody) and unless the EU just becomes one big state I expect it will stay that way and become even more so.

I agree that your post is well written and that Education is in general pretty EU neutral.

Regarding some Teachers coming from the EU, I don't see that would change if we leave as we will still require immigrants and whatever system we have in place people like Teachers would be allowed. I can remember some of my Teachers were from France and Germany back in the 1960s

I'm a bit confused with your comment about the Children from seasonal migrant workers. Are there that many seasonal migrant workers bringing their children to the UK for schooling? I thought the case always being made is that most are single and contribute more than they receive. Also, this must be very bad for schools as I imagine the children dont speak English and bad for the Children as they are changing school for short periods.

 

[SocketRocket]

Yes please, I always enjoy those.

Mr Gove promising Scotland it's own immigration policy after Brexit.......aye that will be right then.
We all know how honest Westminster government ministers promises are.

Can you show me where Gove said this?

 

[FairwayDodger]

Yes please, I always enjoy those.

Mr Gove promising Scotland it's own immigration policy after Brexit.......aye that will be right then.
We all know how honest Westminster government ministers promises are.

Gove's rank hypocrisy this morning using the case of that Australian family who are threatened with deportation to argue for tighter immigration controls from Europe was breathtaking.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I agree that your post is well written and that Education is in general pretty EU neutral.

Regarding some Teachers coming from the EU, I don't see that would change if we leave as we will still require immigrants and whatever system we have in place people like Teachers would be allowed. I can remember some of my Teachers were from France and Germany back in the 1960s

I'm a bit confused with your comment about the Children from seasonal migrant workers. Are there that many seasonal migrant workers bringing their children to the UK for schooling? I thought the case always being made is that most are single and contribute more than they receive. Also, this must be very bad for schools as I imagine the children dont speak English and bad for the Children as they are changing school for short periods.

I do not know if teachers coming in will change either, I am not using that as an argument to stay/leave, but from being involved in educational type forums much like this one, that is a fear in some areas. There may well still be opportunities for EU teachers to come to the UK. But I think the argument is that some may feel that it is more trouble than it is worth if they have to go though whatever extra employment hoops being in the EU negates. So they will just go to another EU country instead.

Also with regards to children of migrant workers than again yes I imagine the numbers are very small. But it is purely a numbers thing for small rural schools where they tend to end up in. The more kids schools have the more money they get in grants, and some of these schools are very small. Most maintained schools are financially feeling the pinch to put it politely, so extra kids means extra money which can make the difference between having to make teachers redundant or not. Or even a school being viable and sustainable. And that is not some fanciful scare story as I have personal experience of that. Nothing to do with EU migrant workers kids as that is not an issue where I live, but the same principal, not enough kids to effectively pay the teachers wages. And my school is by no means unique in that.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Can you show me where Gove said this?

Why?

Just enter Google.. type in 'Gove and Scottish immigration' and choose any of the following.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Was just reading the Gove story and saw that the UK will be taking over the presidency of the EU in 2017. In the event of a Leave vote we could negotiate some cracking deals for ourselves........

UK PM - "we're leaving but we want full access to the single market, no free movement of workers, 50% discount on all goods we import from the EU and you have to pay us £10 billion per year for all of this"

UK EU president - "OK"

 

[Foxholer]

Mr Gove promising Scotland it's own immigration policy after Brexit.......aye that will be right then.
We all know how honest Westminster government ministers promises are.

:rofl: :rofl:

It's not so much the the half-truths that everyone has (or at least should have) come to realise are the way all politicians work, but the complete - and obvious - impossibility of actually implementing such a policy!

Difficult for him to sink any lower in my opinion (not from his support of leaving the EU, I hasten to add), but, by saying this, he has certainly done so! I hope he very rapidly gets asked about the practicality of implementing such a proposal, or whether he has ever driven on the M6 past Carlisle, used Virgin Trains to Waverley or Glasgow Central or heard of National Express buses!

With that ridiculous spiel, he has made Boris the Buffoon (or 'Oh Dear' Osborne to be even-handed!) seem more like a 'proper' politician!

A gaffe of the highest order, that should haunt him for the rest of the campaign, but will quite possibly be simply forgotten amongst all the other ridiculous/outrageous claims - by both sides!

 

[ger147]

So is the Gove plan to have a wee portacabin just north of Berwich Upon Tweed a la North Korea with a bunch of Police Scotland cars facing south towards the opposing Northumberland police force?

Meanwhile a fleet of gun boats patrolling off the coast to stop the illicit shortbread smugglers from getting their banned produce to the English masses each Hogmany?

I think his idea needs a bit more work...

 

[Doon frae Troon]

So it looks like under Brexit NI and Scotland will have it's own borders.
Wasn't that what the [now separatist] unionists fought tooth and nail against only two years ago.

 

[SocketRocket]

So it looks like under Brexit NI and Scotland will have it's own borders.
Wasn't that what the [now separatist] unionists fought tooth and nail against only two years ago.

Will it ever be possible for you to post something sensible. You constantly post absurd statements and they are mostly anti English. I guess that makes you a prime Xenophobe.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Will it ever be possible for you to post something sensible. You constantly post absurd statements and they are mostly anti English. I guess that makes you a prime Xenophobe.

Ahem.....they are not my statements, they were comments made by two Brexit politicians.
You must obviously disagree with them.