EG Webinar on New Handicap Rules in 2024

[2blue]

It'll be interesting to see how that looks. Given the inconsistency of some players, and the fact they have a partner to score when they don't do well, you could have players with a lot of 4BBB events, many of which they score on less than 9 holes (maybe even a lot less sometimes), and yet still have a reasonable number of times in which the team get over 42 points.

When WHS started, despite all the various difficulties of implementing certain procedures, I always felt it was at least good the system demanded pre-registration, and that the "purity" of the system meant that if a player commits to a score for handicap, that commitment is made before starting. Therefore all their rounds are included, good and bad, so that they are awarded a fair handicap for them. With 4BBB, that is now completely out the window. The system is now actively deciding to put good scores on the system, and disregard bad ones. I think that is an awful way to use WHS. All in all, if you have a diligent handicap committee, then theoretically they'll more often have to INCREASE player handicaps because the system had only added good scores to a players record, and not the bad ones.

If players are limiting their golf, to that extent, to just B/ball, then I think the H/cap advice would be to submit more singles cards. If fact the C & C's for the B/ball Opens & Events should be requiring such anyway. It should be up to WHS to deal with all the possible issues of 'dodgy' golfers...... UHS certainly made little effort ie. 3 cards a year to maintain an 'active H/cap' was a joke.

 

[clubchamp98]

For elite events, they have done that as the suspicion is that GPs are being used to stay LOW.
I think here we are talking about GPs being used to GO HIGH.

Yes I know but it should be across the whole spectrum of handicaps.

I would think for every one keeping it artificially low there’s hundreds keeping it high.!

 

[clubchamp98]

How would that work? I thought only he GOOD betterball scores went on to a players record, and maybe only the record of one of the players, not necessarily both.

You could have a player that plays more than a dozen 4BBB Opens and gets a team score over 42 points 3 times, with his score going onto his record. Another player could play only 3 Opens and have his score appear 3 times on his record. If a handicap sec was to look at both records, how would they know which player might need a review more, when there is no record of all the bad scores as well?

Furthermore, bandit pairs could consist of one fairly steady player and a streaky high handicapper. They might use up to 8 scores from high handicapper where he has scored 3, 4 and maybe 5 points on holes. Then hopefully at least 10 scores from steady player around 2 points a hole, perhaps the odd 3 pointer. It's the high handicapper that does the damage and enables such a great team score, the low handicapper who had the score go on their record (and potentially a worse score than the higher handicapper)

Yes absolute shocking idea imo.

It’s got to the stage now imo that lower guys don’t give a toss.
They will play opens for a day out .

 

[clubchamp98]

As I understand it all the scores will be available for committees to review. I would assume the ‘non counting‘ (less than 42 points combined less than 36 individual scores) will just be the raw data, showing the 3 or 8 or 14 scores that were input alongside the player plus the team total. If they are regularly getting 40 points and your player is on the card 14 or so times every time then this is useful evidence as is someone who is only ever on the card a handful of times despite high team scores. As all such evidence it is never definitive but adds to the picture of the player’s demonstrated ability.
A very good thing for use by diligent handicap committees, now all we need are more diligent handicap committees.

The last line is the main problem.
We were assured by many the Handicap secs work load would not go up.

 

[clubchamp98]

It'll be interesting to see how that looks. Given the inconsistency of some players, and the fact they have a partner to score when they don't do well, you could have players with a lot of 4BBB events, many of which they score on less than 9 holes (maybe even a lot less sometimes), and yet still have a reasonable number of times in which the team get over 42 points.

When WHS started, despite all the various difficulties of implementing certain procedures, I always felt it was at least good the system demanded pre-registration, and that the "purity" of the system meant that if a player commits to a score for handicap, that commitment is made before starting. Therefore all their rounds are included, good and bad, so that they are awarded a fair handicap for them. With 4BBB, that is now completely out the window. The system is now actively deciding to put good scores on the system, and disregard bad ones. I think that is an awful way to use WHS. All in all, if you have a diligent handicap committee, then theoretically they'll more often have to INCREASE player handicaps because the system had only added good scores to a players record, and not the bad ones.

Yes I think this idea just reaffirms WHS can not deal with manipulating!
While making it easier to do.

 

[clubchamp98]

If players are limiting their golf, to that extent, to just B/ball, then I think the H/cap advice would be to submit more singles cards. If fact the C & C's for the B/ball Opens & Events should be requiring such anyway. It should be up to WHS to deal with all the possible issues of 'dodgy' golfers...... UHS certainly made little effort ie. 3 cards a year to maintain an 'active H/cap' was a joke.

Maybe make all four players mark a Stableford card.
Then transfer best score on each hole to a comp card ( or another column)
Then players are putting cards in not just 4bbb.

More work for the H sec though.

 

[D-S]

When you have some people on one side wanting MLS and almost every round counting to ensure accuracy despite this being the easiest way to manipulate your handicap up or down or just plain wrong ano others wanting competition cards only to ensure accuracy, there is almost no way the authorities can get this right.
The more involved I get the more I think that the simplest solution is to have virtually no cost, trinket prizes (a branded ball marker or pitch repairer or free 4 ball for example) for Open Competitions. This will deter the serial pot hunters and at least, if your team does play really, really well and still loses by miles to a bunch of bandits/cheats then you haven’t missed out on much. It would also hopefully reduce entry fees as the club only needs to fund a small amount for prizes.

 

[Swango1980]

When you have some people on one side wanting MLS and almost every round counting to ensure accuracy despite this being the easiest way to manipulate your handicap up or down or just plain wrong ano others wanting competition cards only to ensure accuracy, there is almost no way the authorities can get this right.
The more involved I get the more I think that the simplest solution is to have virtually no cost, trinket prizes (a branded ball marker or pitch repairer or free 4 ball for example) for Open Competitions. This will deter the serial pot hunters and at least, if your team does play really, really well and still loses by miles to a bunch of bandits/cheats then you haven’t missed out on much. It would also hopefully reduce entry fees as the club only needs to fund a small amount for prizes.

I've always felt there needs to be some sort of database, outside the simple handicap record scoring, but linked to players handicap record. It documents every players competitive score (team or individual), format of the competition, players/teams in the event and the final position of the player/player's team. If this happened, there would be a record of a players achievements outside of normal qualifying type events. Handicap secs of clubs could review this and look for any consistent outstanding Open performances from any of their members. Open organizers could look at the same record of the people entering, and if they think there look to be any bandits, it might urge them to contact the players home club just in case they missed it. I'm sure the system could even be set up to highlight the most exceptional records of certain players, players who stand out at being more successful than you'd expect.

At the moment, there are no records of team events at Opens. OK, this will sort of be added with 4BBB, but only to such a small extent and it has so many flaws. Still ignored are team scores in best 2 from 4 events (Teams of 4), Scrambles, etc. In the Opens I play around Lincolnshire, the vast majority are Teams of 4 type events. I play very few pairs events.

 

[2blue]

D-S said:
As I understand it all the scores will be available for committees to review. I would assume the ‘non counting‘ (less than 42 points combined less than 36 individual scores) will just be the raw data, showing the 3 or 8 or 14 scores that were input alongside the player plus the team total. If they are regularly getting 40 points and your player is on the card 14 or so times every time then this is useful evidence as is someone who is only ever on the card a handful of times despite high team scores. As all such evidence it is never definitive but adds to the picture of the player’s demonstrated ability.
A very good thing for use by diligent handicap committees, now all we need are more diligent handicap committees.

The last line is the main problem.
We were assured by many the Handicap secs work load would not go up.

Yes, many owe it to their members to be more diligent..... after all they should know their Members a great deal better than WHS who are simply trying to provide info. It is after all an H/cap System... NOT an investigative agency.

 

[D-S]

To go back to the Webinar, I don't think enough was made out of the fact that Course Handicaps are going to be unrounded in future so it will be difficult to work out your playing handicap by simply using the board as many do in future, I don't fancy having to work out 85% of 6.2 or 15.9 early on a Sunday morning if the roll up is doing 2 out of 4 for example.
Having rounded scores on the boards (which need to be changed anyway due to CR-Par) simply will be wrong and confusing. So examples of better solutions should be given.
A QR code linking to a PH calculator is a good idea, but where do clubs source the calculator? Wouldn't it be good for EG to have one?
Or are there tables with all the allowances 75/80/85/90/95% available to print out so they can be in the Pro Shop/Changing room/Clubhouse. Shouldn't these be available on the EG website not just the rounded (useless) CR-Par tables that they have now?

 

[rulie]

To go back to the Webinar, I don't think enough was made out of the fact that Course Handicaps are going to be unrounded in future so it will be difficult to work out your playing handicap by simply using the board as many do in future, I don't fancy having to work out 85% of 6.2 or 15.9 early on a Sunday morning if the roll up is doing 2 out of 4 for example.
Having rounded scores on the boards (which need to be changed anyway due to CR-Par) simply will be wrong and confusing. So examples of better solutions should be given.
A QR code linking to a PH calculator is a good idea, but where do clubs source the calculator? Wouldn't it be good for EG to have one?
Or are there tables with all the allowances 75/80/85/90/95% available to print out so they can be in the Pro Shop/Changing room/Clubhouse. Shouldn't these be available on the EG website not just the rounded (useless) CR-Par tables that they have now?

If a player can "read" a QR code, they obviously have a phone with them. Phones have calculator apps that can be used.

 

[Swango1980]

To go back to the Webinar, I don't think enough was made out of the fact that Course Handicaps are going to be unrounded in future so it will be difficult to work out your playing handicap by simply using the board as many do in future, I don't fancy having to work out 85% of 6.2 or 15.9 early on a Sunday morning if the roll up is doing 2 out of 4 for example.
Having rounded scores on the boards (which need to be changed anyway due to CR-Par) simply will be wrong and confusing. So examples of better solutions should be given.
A QR code linking to a PH calculator is a good idea, but where do clubs source the calculator? Wouldn't it be good for EG to have one?
Or are there tables with all the allowances 75/80/85/90/95% available to print out so they can be in the Pro Shop/Changing room/Clubhouse. Shouldn't these be available on the EG website not just the rounded (useless) CR-Par tables that they have now?

I see what you are saying, but this made me chuckle. Some would have you believe that WHS is easier for your average Joe golfer to understand and use. There may be many reasons to say where WHS is better than before, but the argument of simplicity shouldn't be one of them.

 

[D-S]

If a player can "read" a QR code, they obviously have a phone with them. Phones have calculator apps that can be used.

Yes but wouldn’t it be simpler for the QR code to take you to a user friendly golf constructed calculator - this might exist on various websites but where do clubs find them, where do you get the codes etc
wouldn’t this be the sort of info and advice that EG should provide? They will be needed on 1/4/24 so they will need printing etc all mundane tasks but clubs need to do them.

 

[doublebogey7]

If a player can "read" a QR code, they obviously have a phone with them. Phones have calculator apps that can be used.

They would need to know the formulae though in order to get the to the unrounded CH. Most won't have a clue.

 

[rulefan]

The last line is the main problem.
We were assured by many the Handicap secs work load would not go up.

The H'cap Sec is not supposed to be the only member of the H'cap C'ee. Many hands .......

 

[IanMcC]

WHS Calculator V2 – Easthampstead Golf Club

www.easthampsteadgolfclub.co.uk

This is the best online calculator I have found so far.

There are also printouts available from Wales/England Golf portal., for Administrators.

 

[rulefan]

To go back to the Webinar, I don't think enough was made out of the fact that Course Handicaps are going to be unrounded in future so it will be difficult to work out your playing handicap by simply using the board as many do in future, I don't fancy having to work out 85% of 6.2 or 15.9 early on a Sunday morning if the roll up is doing 2 out of 4 for example.
Having rounded scores on the boards (which need to be changed anyway due to CR-Par) simply will be wrong and confusing. So examples of better solutions should be given.
A QR code linking to a PH calculator is a good idea, but where do clubs source the calculator? Wouldn't it be good for EG to have one?
Or are there tables with all the allowances 75/80/85/90/95% available to print out so they can be in the Pro Shop/Changing room/Clubhouse. Shouldn't these be available on the EG website not just the rounded (useless) CR-Par tables that they have now?

See the recent update to Handicap Master

 

[D-S]

See the recent update to Handicap Master

Fine if clubs have Handicap Master

 

[rulefan]

Fine if clubs have Handicap Master

I guess the rest will be pressured to follow suit shortly.

 

[clubchamp98]

The H'cap Sec is not supposed to be the only member of the H'cap C'ee. Many hands .......

That’s right in theory.
But reality ?