EG Webinar on New Handicap Rules in 2024

[rulie]

The Rules of golf say that it is the Committee's responsibility to decide which score counts, including applying handicap strokes and that there is no penalty for entering more than one partner's score on the scorecard.

 

[YandaB]

So is it now the case that a computer will supposedly more accurately calculate the score compared to the actual score?

I know that AI is improving but it seems bonkers that my handicap record could includes scores that did not happen when the actual scores could be used.

I appreciate that balls should be picked up when players can no longer score, but there are scenarios when they have already scored before the teams best score gets recorded.

Am I missing something?

 

[wjemather]

The Rules of golf say that it is the Committee's responsibility to decide which score counts, including applying handicap strokes and that there is no penalty for entering more than one partner's score on the scorecard.

It isn't a RoG issue.

 

[jim8flog]

4BBB is covered in the new guidance - only the counting score should be recorded on each hole.

Having had to enter the sores for dozens of teams on the computer in Opens etc it is so much simpler to enter the score for each player according to what is shown on the card (the way computer systems do it) than to work which one is the best and only enter that one.

 

[D-S]

The simplest of all systems for this would be for the software or the card to only have one space to fill per hole and then more than one score cannot be recorded, however we are not being told that and we don’t know why.
All this ‘should not be recorded’, ‘significant number’, ‘regular basis’ plus the extra work for the committee would be avoided at a stroke. Unfortunately this was not cleared up at yesterday’s webinar.

 

[rulie]

It isn't a RoG issue.

But this is a Rules of golf forum.

 

[rulefan]

But this is a Rules of golf forum.

I have suggested to the mods that there should be separate WHS and RoG forums.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Ahhh, so same same, but different. No dramas. I think I have submitted about 3 9 hole scores in the entirety of WHS, so all good.

I want to know more about the 4BBB scoring adjustments, but I also do believe in the ‘Trust the Computer’ theory.

I would make a couple of points; EG are keen for players to play and enter 9 hole scores as they believe these are more attractive to busy people (this hasn't been borne out by current returns). Secondly, I think we continue to distance players from understanding how their handicap is calculated. This may be irrelevant for many but some people like to understand how things work. As more elements become proprietary (secret) this is impossible to do. I would query why so much is becoming proprietary unless the authorities have ambitions to become a software vendor.

 

[woofers]

There’s some decent information on the England Golf website, (2024 WHS Update Resources) here’s the link to the 4 ball slide:
https://static.whsplatform.englandgolf.org/clubs/1000-1/uploads/whs/four-ball-scores-infographic.jpg

 

[D-S]

I guess it will be very similar to the PCC algorithm, player's likeliest score based of previous history..

Would this mean that lower handicappers are more likely to play close to net par for holes not played and higher indexes further away from net par for those holes? And, if so, further away from par higher or lower?

 

[rulefan]

Would this mean that lower handicappers are more likely to play close to net par for holes not played and higher indexes further away from net par for those holes?

I guess so

And, if so, further away from par higher or lower?

No idea

 

[D-S]

I guess so


No idea

I assume net par plus 1 for scaling up the back 9 was quite penal on a scratch golfer but given the wider variation of scores not so much for a 30 handicapper.
So my guess is that it will be less than a shot for lower and more than a shot for higher handicappers.
Would have been good to have some sort of info now though, as we will find out anyway when it comes into force.

 

[Swango1980]

The advice (from the 2024 Guidance on the rules of Handicapping) to committees is:-
"The standard approach to Fourball competition should continue to be used – as soon as the best score has been recorded, the other player should pick up in order not to impact pace of play. Handicap Committees will be justified in disregarding scores for handicapping purposes where scores for both players are recorded on a significant number of holes on a regular basis.'

To me, this is where ridiculous guidance is made up simply to try and fiddle something in WHS to make it work more seamlessly (maybe like when the laws of football change to try and make VAR work).

If 2 players in a pair record the same score, the likelihood it that 99% of the time spent on the hole was playing from tee to the position where they make their last putt. Once the first player holes it, then his partner may only have a very short putt to make themselves. So, he should pick it up to "not impact the pace of play"? Give me a break, that isn't the reason at all, it is simply so it makes their methodology of shoehorning 4BBB scores into the system a bit easier. And I don't get it either. Surely to goodness if a player is going to have a score put on their handicap record, it makes complete sense that it will be more accurate the more holes they've completed. A system that basically says "no no no, please don't tell us what you actually scored on those holes, we want to give you a made up score for them based on how someone else scored".

And I'm guessing the whole point of using 4BBB scores is because people were moaning about bandits in these competitions? Well, if there are genuine bandits, perhaps they could just both enter all of their scores. Shoot 50 points and then the Committee disregard their score for handicap purposes. Imagine that, pairs scoring more than the threshold of points to warrant their scores being included, the very reason this was brought in, and then a Committee disregarding the scores anyway. And what even does "significant number of holes" or "regular basis" actually mean. Significant number of holes might be defined as 1 or 2 for some Committees, while others might think it is anything over 15 or 16. Does regular basis mean a pair do this in many 4BBB events? So the Committee are meant to analyse historic 4BBB events these players competed in, and then decide if they do this on a regular basis?

The WHS 4BBB rule is feeling to me like it is just as ridiculous as the football handball rule at the moment.

 

[IanMcC]

Just listened to the above. Mostly stuff that had been released but a couple of points I hadn't appreciated (if I understood them correctly).

First, the ability to harmonise par is only within genders. Thus we could adjust our red tee par for men and our yellow tee par for women but not across the board.

Second, it appears the days of 9 hole scores counting for handicap are coming to an end. You can still play and submit a 9 hole score but the score differential will be calculated using your score plus an estimated score for the other 9. The estimation will use a proprietary formula (again) that will scale-up the score based on the performance of people with the same HI across all scores in WHS.

I was also a bit cool about the continued push to go to fully digital scoring to "improve the customer experience".

Maybe it's me but I always get a bit nervous when organisations say "trust the computer".

Does this mean that the 9 hole Slope and Course Ratings will be removed? If not, what is stopping people submitting 9 hole rounds on a rated course?

 

[nickjdavis]

Handy infographic on how 4BBB scores will work for handicapping...

 

[Swango1980]

Handy infographic on how 4BBB scores will work for handicapping...

View attachment 50942

Just seems crazy. You could have a high handicapped partner that could score 3,4 or 5 points (and God forbid even more), on a good number of holes. As their partner, you could also be having a great round, but only managing 2 points when they score 3, 3 points when they score 4 or even a birdie for 4 points when they might even get 5 (or they could still get 4, but the team decide to use their score instead of yours). Yet in all these occasions, you only get 1.5 points.

Can't wait until it comes into force though. I can almost guarantee there will be golfers who track their full 18 scores, and then realise the score that was put in the system was radically different. I'll await them to discuss how it works in practice on this forum, I don't play too many of these formats myself.

 

[woofers]

Handy infographic on how 4BBB scores will work for handicapping...

View attachment 50942

Thanks, that’s the one I posted the link to last night but I couldn’t get the picture to upload.

 

[wjemather]

Does this mean that the 9 hole Slope and Course Ratings will be removed? If not, what is stopping people submitting 9 hole rounds on a rated course?

No, I'm guessing the expectation is that the resultant score differentials will be higher and so less likely to be counting scores.

 

[IanMcC]

No, I'm guessing the expectation is that the resultant score differentials will be higher and so less likely to be counting scores.

Sorry wjemather, I have read this a few times and still dont understand it in relation to my question. My failing.

Many elderly players at my club only play in our Friday 9 hole stableford, and never set foot on the back 9. How can their 18 hole differential be estimated by the software? (If I am understanding this correctly.)

Why on earth are the authorities trying to scare off some of the very people that the introduction of 9 hole ratings by WHS have encouraged to play more?

 

[wjemather]

Sorry wjemather, I have read this a few times and still dont understand it in relation to my question. My failing.

Many elderly players at my club only play in our Friday 9 hole stableford, and never set foot on the back 9. How can their 18 hole differential be estimated by the software? (If I am understanding this correctly.)

Why on earth are the authorities trying to scare off some of the very people that the introduction of 9 hole ratings by WHS have encouraged to play more?

That isn't what is happening. As far as the player is concerned - with respect to playing and submitting scores - nothing is changing.

All that is changing with 9-hole scores is how they are scaled-up to produce an 18-hole score differential.
Currently 9-hole scores are scaled-up by adding a second nine equivalent to 17 Stableford points (over the same 9 holes).
From April, scores will be upscaled by adding an expected score differential for 9 holes.

The change may be expected to result in slightly higher score differentials for 9-hole scores than would be the case currently.