EG Webinar on New Handicap Rules in 2024

IanMcC

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That isn't what is happening. As far as the player is concerned - with respect to playing and submitting scores - nothing is changing.

All that is changing with 9-hole scores is how they are scaled-up to produce an 18-hole score differential.
Currently 9-hole scores are scaled-up by adding a second nine equivalent to 17 Stableford points (over the same 9 holes).
From April, scores will be upscaled by adding an expected score differential for 9 holes.

The change may be expected to result in slightly higher score differentials for 9-hole scores than would be the case currently.
But isnt the new upscaling on the 9 holes not played, not repeating the 9 holes that the player actually played, as it is now?
 

IanMcC

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How am I supposed to sell it to the 9 hole comp players that their differential will be based on how others played the back 9, not them? It was hard enough selling the 17 point upscale initially.
I have been a huge fan of WHS, but it is going a bit silly, i feel.
 

clubchamp98

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Just listened to the above. Mostly stuff that had been released but a couple of points I hadn't appreciated (if I understood them correctly).

First, the ability to harmonise par is only within genders. Thus we could adjust our red tee par for men and our yellow tee par for women but not across the board.

Second, it appears the days of 9 hole scores counting for handicap are coming to an end. You can still play and submit a 9 hole score but the score differential will be calculated using your score plus an estimated score for the other 9. The estimation will use a proprietary formula (again) that will scale-up the score based on the performance of people with the same HI across all scores in WHS.

I was also a bit cool about the continued push to go to fully digital scoring to "improve the customer experience".

Maybe it's me but I always get a bit nervous when organisations say "trust the computer".
Yes so did a lot of Post masters.

But Computers are never wrong.
 

Lord Tyrion

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How am I supposed to sell it to the 9 hole comp players that their differential will be based on how others played the back 9, not them? It was hard enough selling the 17 point upscale initially.
I have been a huge fan of WHS, but it is going a bit silly, i feel.
I guess ultimately, you don't have to sell it to them. It is what it is. It is not as though they can choose another handicap system.

It hurts my head slightly to see what the changes mean but for the average golfer, ie me, we don't need to know. Just tell your fella's to play the game, put the card in. Don't worry about the rest.
 

wjemather

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But isnt the new upscaling on the 9 holes not played, not repeating the 9 holes that the player actually played, as it is now?
No. It's simply a 9-hole score differential that gets added to the score differential from the 9 holes played - it is course independent.
How am I supposed to sell it to the 9 hole comp players that their differential will be based on how others played the back 9, not them? It was hard enough selling the 17 point upscale initially.
I have been a huge fan of WHS, but it is going a bit silly, i feel.
It has nothing to do with how anyone else plays; it is simply the expected score differential for a player of that Handicap Index.
 

IanMcC

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No. It's simply a 9-hole score differential that gets added to the score differential from the 9 holes played - it is course independent.

It has nothing to do with how anyone else plays; it is simply the expected score differential for a player of that Handicap Index.
This is from the opening post, from someone at the seminar:

the score differential will be calculated using your score plus an estimated score for the other 9. The estimation will use a proprietary formula (again) that will scale-up the score based on the performance of people with the same HI across all scores in WHS.

Than looks to me like the upscale will be based on similarly handicapped players playing the OTHER 9 holes. This is ludicrous on both counts.
 

wjemather

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This is from the opening post, from someone at the seminar:

the score differential will be calculated using your score plus an estimated score for the other 9. The estimation will use a proprietary formula (again) that will scale-up the score based on the performance of people with the same HI across all scores in WHS.

Than looks to me like the upscale will be based on similarly handicapped players playing the OTHER 9 holes. This is ludicrous on both counts.
It works as I said above.
But yes, expected scores are based on the millions of real scores submitted to WHS.
 

nickjdavis

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5.0 Expected Scoring

What it is? A change in the method used to up-scale 9-hole scores and any holes not played during a round. The new method provides a more accurate reflection of what the player would have scored on those holes (using player equations rather than net par) and should, therefore, result in a more accurate Handicap Index®. If the hole is not played for a valid reason (due to course maintenance, weather, fading light etc) or other invalid reasoning (player walks off), WHS still requires values to calculate a score differential for these holes not played and will use expected scoring method.

How it works?

The calculation of an expected score is automated and is used to attribute a statistical value against any hole or holes not played within an acceptable 9-hole or 18-hole round so that a 9- hole or 18-hole Score Differential can be calculated, subject to other provisions set out within the Rules of Handicapping.

The procedure for calculating a Score Differential using an expected score can be summarised as follows:

1. An expected Score Differential for the hole or holes not played is calculated, based on a given Handicap Index and a course of standard difficulty.
2. A Score Differential for the holes played is calculated using the player’s actual scores and the rating value of the holes played.
3. The Score Differential from the holes played is combined with the expected Score Differential to produce either a 9-hole or 18-hole Score Differential.
4. For 9-hole rounds - An 18-hole Score Differential is created by combining the 9-hole Score Differential for the 9 holes played with the player’s expected score over 9 holes.

Note – expected scoring is a closed calculation which is generated by computer precision software.

If a player, starts a hole and does not finish, the normal procedure of Nett Double Bogey being applied to the adjusted gross score.

Benefits

A more precise calculation for 9-hole up-scaling to an 18-hole score differential ensuring a more reflective and accurate Handicap Index® compared to a player’s demonstrated ability.
Competitions over a non-standard number of holes can be used for handicap purposes. Any competitions played over 9 or any number of holes over 9 (such as 12 or 14) can be used for handicapping.
 

Swango1980

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I guess ultimately, you don't have to sell it to them. It is what it is. It is not as though they can choose another handicap system.

It hurts my head slightly to see what the changes mean but for the average golfer, ie me, we don't need to know. Just tell your fella's to play the game, put the card in. Don't worry about the rest.
You need to know when not to put your score on the card though, in 4BBB. Otherwise you might get a slap on the wrist for having the audacity of putting down your score when your partner scored for the team. Personally, I think you should be banned from your club for such an act :)
 

rulefan

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1. An expected Score Differential for the hole or holes not played is calculated, based on a given Handicap Index and a course of standard difficulty.

4. For 9-hole rounds - An 18-hole Score Differential is created by combining the 9-hole Score Differential for the 9 holes played with the player’s expected score over 9 holes.

Note – expected scoring is a closed calculation which is generated by computer precision software.
NB. It doesn't specify any particular holes on any particular course/tees. Just an imaginary 9 hole course of standard difficulty (ie slope = 113).
 

Lord Tyrion

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You need to know when not to put your score on the card though, in 4BBB. Otherwise you might get a slap on the wrist for having the audacity of putting down your score when your partner scored for the team. Personally, I think you should be banned from your club for such an act :)
Many a time I've put both scores down, in a just in case situation. I suppose it means being verbally told how to mark 4bbb for the next season, until we get used to it.
 

mikejohnchapman

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I guess ultimately, you don't have to sell it to them. It is what it is. It is not as though they can choose another handicap system.

It hurts my head slightly to see what the changes mean but for the average golfer, ie me, we don't need to know. Just tell your fella's to play the game, put the card in. Don't worry about the rest.
I get your general point (not sure I agree with it). However, we have gone through a lot of changes since 2019 and I fear we are at risk of disenfranchising players who will feel they can't be bothered to put in cards as they don't understand the new system. This goes completely against the desire by EG for people to put more scores in to get a handicap that reflects their current ability / form. If you have no idea what impact your score will have what's the point?

I also don't think it has been designed to be easier for new players as I can attest by trying to explain things.

Maybe we just use the Slade approach and tell them their handicap is like Christmas every day - no idea what will be until you open your present!
 

DickInShorts

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I get your general point (not sure I agree with it). However, we have gone through a lot of changes since 2019 and I fear we are at risk of disenfranchising players who will feel they can't be bothered to put in cards as they don't understand the new system. This goes completely against the desire by EG for people to put more scores in to get a handicap that reflects their current ability / form. If you have no idea what impact your score will have what's the point?

I also don't think it has been designed to be easier for new players as I can attest by trying to explain things.

Maybe we just use the Slade approach and tell them their handicap is like Christmas every day - no idea what will be until you open your present!

I suspect the intention is to end up with the. Same handicapping rules worldwide. At least we don’t have MLS like the Americans - I’m sure that was wide open to abuse!
 

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EG say they are working with ISVs to have only one score per hole available for entry in 4BB, which seems sensible as it solves a few issues. However people are now asking what happens if there is a 2s comp and you can/must only record 1 score but you have 2 2s.
Also people saying if you both have scored 2 points on a hole why must someone’s score not count and their score will be interpreted as 1.5 points not 2 as they actually scored and may mean that their total might not therefore reach 36 points and so not be eligible for handicapping.
It would have been good to have theese wrinkles worked out beforehand and clear firm guidelines issued which I wrongly thought might have been the purpose of the Webinar.
 
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The simple solution for 4BBB is to apply the score to both players irrespective of how many holes each score on. Yes one player may have a shocker, but it’s a team game so the score should apply to both.

I would do it for any score over 40 points.
 

2blue

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EG say they are working with ISVs to have only one score per hole available for entry in 4BB, which seems sensible as it solves a few issues. However people are now asking what happens if there is a 2s comp and you can/must only record 1 score but you have 2 2s.
Also people saying if you both have scored 2 points on a hole why must someone’s score not count and their score will be interpreted as 1.5 points not 2 as they actually scored and may mean that their total might not therefore reach 36 points and so not be eligible for handicapping.
It would have been good to have theese wrinkles worked out beforehand and clear firm guidelines issued which I wrongly thought might have been the purpose of the Webinar.
Yeah, permitting only one score per hole makes a lot of sense.
On 2's I'd have thought they'd be pretty rare to be on offer in team games anyway, certainly never at our place, so not a big loss.
 

D-S

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Yeah, permitting only one score per hole makes a lot of sense.
On 2's I'd have thought they'd be pretty rare to be on offer in team games anyway, certainly never at our place, so not a big loss.
Down this way it is pretty normal to have a 2s comp in Open better balls but I am sure there would be a manual way round this.
 

2blue

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Down this way it is pretty normal to have a 2s comp in Open better balls but I am sure there would be a manual way round this.
Yes, if its run by the Pro then simply show him the signed card & collect your balls if it's an Open. As you say Club can sort it other ways I'm sure if it's a Club Comp.
 

Swango1980

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EG say they are working with ISVs to have only one score per hole available for entry in 4BB, which seems sensible as it solves a few issues. However people are now asking what happens if there is a 2s comp and you can/must only record 1 score but you have 2 2s.
Also people saying if you both have scored 2 points on a hole why must someone’s score not count and their score will be interpreted as 1.5 points not 2 as they actually scored and may mean that their total might not therefore reach 36 points and so not be eligible for handicapping.
It would have been good to have theese wrinkles worked out beforehand and clear firm guidelines issued which I wrongly thought might have been the purpose of the Webinar.
I'm not sure this would help (and you make good points as to the reason why afterwards).

Firstly, regardless of what ISVs do, it probably isn't really relevant because the first time a score appears documented, it is on the paper card the players have with them. So, if they both score and 2 scores are entered, it doesn't really matter what the ISV asks for. And if 2 players score the same score on the card, what happens when it comes to officially entering the scores in the system. Currently, the player just enters both scores on the system, the system correctly works out their score. Now they have to choose between 2 scores. They may remember who holed first and submit that. But, golfers do lots of weird and wonderful things. Some may just pick one fairly randomly, they may pick their own score all the time, they may pick the score of the guy who didn't play so well just so he appears on the card. And if they know how it will impact on a players handicap, they may elect to choose the score that gets them the score they want put on a players record.

And if players are just submitting cards to Committee to enter, they won't have a clue anyway whose score is to count. In this case, I can see a whole lot of extra work for Committee trying to chase players down to ask whose scores should count.

Furthermore, when WHS came out I remember the general message to those that are really confused with the system "don't worry, just put down your gross score and let the system deal with the rest". That will not be true in 4BBB now. Unbelievably, there are still quite a few people out there who don't really understand Stableford, when they get shots and what it means for points. Even chaps off an 18 handicap sometimes struggle. But now, in 4BBB they will simply have to learn how Stableford works, because they'll need to know if there own score or their partners will count. Basic stuff, I know. But the authorities can't any longer hide behind the "just put in your score and don't worry about the rest"
 

D-S

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I'm not sure this would help (and you make good points as to the reason why afterwards).

Firstly, regardless of what ISVs do, it probably isn't really relevant because the first time a score appears documented, it is on the paper card the players have with them. So, if they both score and 2 scores are entered, it doesn't really matter what the ISV asks for. And if 2 players score the same score on the card, what happens when it comes to officially entering the scores in the system. Currently, the player just enters both scores on the system, the system correctly works out their score. Now they have to choose between 2 scores. They may remember who holed first and submit that. But, golfers do lots of weird and wonderful things. Some may just pick one fairly randomly, they may pick their own score all the time, they may pick the score of the guy who didn't play so well just so he appears on the card. And if they know how it will impact on a players handicap, they may elect to choose the score that gets them the score they want put on a players record.

And if players are just submitting cards to Committee to enter, they won't have a clue anyway whose score is to count. In this case, I can see a whole lot of extra work for Committee trying to chase players down to ask whose scores should count.

Furthermore, when WHS came out I remember the general message to those that are really confused with the system "don't worry, just put down your gross score and let the system deal with the rest". That will not be true in 4BBB now. Unbelievably, there are still quite a few people out there who don't really understand Stableford, when they get shots and what it means for points. Even chaps off an 18 handicap sometimes struggle. But now, in 4BBB they will simply have to learn how Stableford works, because they'll need to know if there own score or their partners will count. Basic stuff, I know. But the authorities can't any longer hide behind the "just put in your score and don't worry about the rest"
If the software only allows one score per hole (i.e. only has one box) then only 18 scores can be returned - it is entirely down to the players which is entered, you only will advise your marker one score.
I played in a 4BB comp yesterday and regularly the marker asked was that your 4 or your partners? and if I was the first ball in I would say it was mine.
If the club is using scorecards and organisers are inputting the scores they probably can make it mandatory that only one score is entered per hole (penalty for example if there are two scores on one hole on the card neither will be entered).
 
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