HawkeyeMS
Ryder Cup Winner
To be fair Homer, a lot of the old boys don't ever seem to be happy about anything.
Does your club have life members?
- Thread starter ManinBlack
- Start date
To be fair Homer, a lot of the old boys don't ever seem to be happy about anything.
ManinBlack
Tour Winner
All the other local clubs are having similar problems, a couple have gone bust recently. We are all cutting each other's throats with green fees but our annual sub, at just under £700, puts some people off. (I'm sure Hogan, playing in Surrey, will be able to understand that!) Too many clubs chasing too few golfers.
GB72
Money List Winner
I can sort of see both sides of this.
The bare bones of the matter are that the club entered into a business agreement with the life members in that they offered the life membership and benefitted from the large initial injection of cash. Bearing that in mind, there is no reason for the life members to pay any more nor should they feel any guilt in that decision. They were offered a deal that they took and both parties benefitted at the time. It would not be unreasonable for the club to have ensured that these life memberships were viable to all parties and also to ensure as necessary that only a certain amount were issued each year if there was a restriction on total membership numbers. If the membership was totally open then I cannot see an issue.
On that basis, the club are now inferring that there are too many life members and it cannot afford to support them or keep allowing more to take up the deal. Part of the problem here is a lack of foresight in the memorandum and articles of association. The turkeys are not going to vote for xmas and there should have been an alternative procedure in place if the financial security of the club were threatened.
In the event that there is no voluntary agreement, there is little option but for the club to play hardball. Simple fact is that paying a little more for a life membership of a club has to be preferential to being a life member of a club that does not exist.
Unfortunately here it would appear that the problem is poor decisions and business acumen on the part of the club (people have, after all, had longer life expectancies for quite a while now) and it is, as is often the case, down to the members to sort it out.
Life membership is all well and good, an excellent way of rewarding loyalty and a way to raise some quick cash but the set up of the club should always be that the membership can only have a certain percentage of life members and if that gets too high it needs to reduce before any more are offered.
The bare bones of the matter are that the club entered into a business agreement with the life members in that they offered the life membership and benefitted from the large initial injection of cash. Bearing that in mind, there is no reason for the life members to pay any more nor should they feel any guilt in that decision. They were offered a deal that they took and both parties benefitted at the time. It would not be unreasonable for the club to have ensured that these life memberships were viable to all parties and also to ensure as necessary that only a certain amount were issued each year if there was a restriction on total membership numbers. If the membership was totally open then I cannot see an issue.
On that basis, the club are now inferring that there are too many life members and it cannot afford to support them or keep allowing more to take up the deal. Part of the problem here is a lack of foresight in the memorandum and articles of association. The turkeys are not going to vote for xmas and there should have been an alternative procedure in place if the financial security of the club were threatened.
In the event that there is no voluntary agreement, there is little option but for the club to play hardball. Simple fact is that paying a little more for a life membership of a club has to be preferential to being a life member of a club that does not exist.
Unfortunately here it would appear that the problem is poor decisions and business acumen on the part of the club (people have, after all, had longer life expectancies for quite a while now) and it is, as is often the case, down to the members to sort it out.
Life membership is all well and good, an excellent way of rewarding loyalty and a way to raise some quick cash but the set up of the club should always be that the membership can only have a certain percentage of life members and if that gets too high it needs to reduce before any more are offered.
Doh
Journeyman Pro
Our club does not have any life memberships I do know it has been discussed at various times but never acted upon. It does however have a few honorary life members limited to four I believe.
Foxholer
Blackballed
I too am no great advocate of LMs. I know another club that had a 20 year Debenture which seemed like a better idea than that of PNW's luck few - though 12-15k in 1995 was equivalent to a lot more now!
I also question how LMs actually 'threaten the existence of a Golf Club'! Another poster (the OP?) pointed out that all the club did, when they had a waiting list, was offer membership to the same number from the waiting list as were becoming LMs! It's now a case of going out and selling the benefits of the club to the same number of customers - admittedly difficult currently. But LMs are certainly not a burden on the club - at least not until they take up all the tee times!
GB72
Money List Winner
I am not sure about whether we have life members at my club or whether they were sold at any club I have been a member of. I know the pro at my old club was given one after 25 years service and I know that my dad was given one at Greetham Valley as he was the first club captain and president but I have only heard of them being awarded and not sold.
Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
I wondered when common sense would raise it's ugly head.
Lots of coveting going on.
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
We have about 20, based on service to the club, combined with a minimum membership period, and a set age. They don't pay any subs, but are asked if they would like to make a donation towards the running of the club. I don't know how many do this though.
How sustainable this is, I have no idea.
How sustainable this is, I have no idea.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
It's sustainable until having a LM prevents a prospective new member joining - so just don't let that happen. And have your membership limit and finances calculated excluding LMs. Having LMs doesn't actually cost the club a penny if you ignore them.
ManinBlack
Tour Winner
What!? After year 3 at our club we are losing around 80% of annual sub for each life member we have, assuming 80% would still remain members if life membership didn't exist.
BoadieBroadus
Q-School Graduate
assuming that life members are getting on in age, how much use of the course are they actually making for their life membership, only then can you really ascertain if you're getting a bad deal.
i'd expect that most life members would be pretty old and probably only playing 9 holes a couple of times during the week in summer. they probably regularly hang around the clubhouse as a social club and support the bar / restaurant facilities. if you wanted to charge them full membership for that they'd probably give up playing rights and take social membership or just leave altogether.
if someone had taken my money as consideration for an offer for life membership and then decided that they didn't like the deal after all, a solicitors letter detailing their breach of contract would probably be coming their way very shortly.
i'd expect that most life members would be pretty old and probably only playing 9 holes a couple of times during the week in summer. they probably regularly hang around the clubhouse as a social club and support the bar / restaurant facilities. if you wanted to charge them full membership for that they'd probably give up playing rights and take social membership or just leave altogether.
if someone had taken my money as consideration for an offer for life membership and then decided that they didn't like the deal after all, a solicitors letter detailing their breach of contract would probably be coming their way very shortly.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Sorry - you are not losing anything - the club sold them their membership up front. Deal done. And the money they paid up front would have been used to the benefit of the club or members in some way - possibly keeping everyone else's subs down. They now don't have to pay an annual subscription and they don;t actually cost your club anything for them to be members. Seems to me to be a bit pointless making assumptions about how many might pay annual membership if they weren't LMs - because they are. The LMs are now just a group of golfers who don't have to pay for their golf. Some other members no doubt are resentful of that fact, but that doesn't change anything. What do you expect of your LMs? To start paying something?
Seems like your club made an informed decision about LMs on basis of an assumption that the level of new members joining from year 3 would balance off the loss of the subs you;d have got from the members now LMs. Such is the risk with such schemes I guess.
ManinBlack
Tour Winner
If the vote goes one way at the upcoming AGM that's exactly what we'll be doing!
beau d.
Assistant Pro
.....In honesty I suppose I am being hypocritical here, as I have to say in most other aspects of life I am a great advocate of rewarding loyalty (long service in my job is rewarded etc). But I think that with Golf clubs we have a different animal, and it is evident as in Maninblacks case and others I presume it does, and is having an impact on Clubs viability to a small degree.
Take for example PNW's post where LM was sold at 12 to 15K, his annual subs are £3,300, so the lump sum covers 4 to 4 1/2 years subs, there is a hell of a lot of annual subscription money to be found after that time has lapsed. I presume Clubs do the maths and calculate they can grant so many LM's to raise funds for a certain project etc, But! there are far too many variables in play for me if I were dishing out Life memberships. E.g every golf club has a membership limit dependent on local conditions (none of us i'm sure would agree to taking on extra members to cover LM's at the cost of not being able to get on our course), may be 5,6 or 700+ I don't know, so what level of membership is the LM calculated on? What happens when that magic number of members is not made up, as I am sure many clubs have experienced currently we hit a decline in the sport in general, the club is then under pressure to generate additional funds to make up that shortfall or face problems. Life (hopefully) is a lot longer nowadays, so lets say someone who qualified for LM by being a member for 25 years will play more often for many more years, if Joe Blogs as in PNW's example has only put a lump sum for 4 years in the coffers it's nailed on that on average he is going to be playing double, treble probably more than that 4 years.
I guess I am over complicating things here but the jist of my post is rewarding loyalty is a fine and honorable thing providing it can be affordable, in my opinion given the variables and declining membership clubs currently find themselves in it makes much more sense financially for the long term security of the club to have a good stream of revenue year on year, than taking a lump sum which will only account for a small proportion of the fees an ordinary member would pay over the same membership period at the club. After all take PNW's example (sorry to keep using you as an example) if there were 20 LM's at his club after 4 years when the lump sum has run dry they would be 66K down annually for as long as that 20 LM's are playing..... A lot of casual green fees or similar to be found!
However I am a big believer in a small number of Honorary LM's for exceptional service to the club.
beau d.
Assistant Pro
You have a very honorable stance Maninblack as you yourself state you are a LM. You obviously have the best interests of your club at heart..... Hats off to you matey
BoadieBroadus
Q-School Graduate
Has that been checked legally? Asking lm's to pay voluntarily is fine. If they object you'd probably lose all the savings in lawyers fees. And more.
The club has made a deal with the lm's and taken their money on certain conditions. Unless its very clear in the t&c 's you can't unilaterally take that away from them. Not without being sued and losing.
PNWokingham
Journeyman Pro
I am not against Life Membership, especially the way our deal was done - just sad I wasn't around and had the means to do it at the time!! Also, in 1994, just before the club opened, the economy was not doing very well, house prices were on their arse etc, it was a new proprietary club and the annual fees for opening were around £800 - £900 (didn't stay that level for long!). Thus, the Life option was maybe the same as 15-18 years up front - and money in the bank at that time still earned a pretty decent return! You had to risk losing everything if the club went under - and several clubs in the vicinity went belly up in the years ahead - Mill Ride, The Oxfordshire etc. If you comp another comparative club now with a similar set up and fees - The Centurian - they are charging £50k+ for a similar deal, which again, is a similar multiple of annual subs.
ManinBlack
Tour Winner
That's a good point, it could be argued that the subsidy could only be applied to anyone taking up life membership after the proposal has been passed.
Surely your club charge an 'Administration' fee no?
If not how bloody short sighted were they not to put that in the terms and conditions of the life fee?
We charge an annual admin fee that is a percentage of the annual fee and this more than covers insurances,golf union subs etc.
If not how bloody short sighted were they not to put that in the terms and conditions of the life fee?
We charge an annual admin fee that is a percentage of the annual fee and this more than covers insurances,golf union subs etc.
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
At my last club they offered up 15 Life Memberships for about 7.5-8k each.
They all got sold and the LM's got 19 years worth of golf until the course closed last year.
From memory, they reckoned the break-even was 9 1\2 years.....
I'm not aware of any at APGC though.
Played a Match against Woburn in '97.
I played a LM.
He told me hat when it opened in '76(?) several LM's were offered up for sale.
He bought one..............for £6000!!!!!!!!
They all got sold and the LM's got 19 years worth of golf until the course closed last year.
From memory, they reckoned the break-even was 9 1\2 years.....
I'm not aware of any at APGC though.
Played a Match against Woburn in '97.
I played a LM.
He told me hat when it opened in '76(?) several LM's were offered up for sale.
He bought one..............for £6000!!!!!!!!
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