Disqualification under 6.1b (2)

[Beware-the-3putt]

Many things can happen during a round which are not permitted and the penalties vary, In this instance we have clear information from the OP as to what happened. The other player took up his challenge and made a stroke with a ball other than his ball in play a stroke that had no place in his proper playing of the hole. That was a practice stroke in terms of Rule 5.5a, the penalty for which is two strokes. That's it, really.

You call it practice. I don't.
His ball was in a ditch and he teed up a new ball. That's not practice.

If we go by your reasoning, anyone that tees up again without declaring a provisional ball can just claim to be "practicing" and take a general play penalty if they balloon the reload oob and find the first ball. Hence instead of being 5 of the tee they are playing their 2nd shot and add the penalty once hole played.

The DQ was fully justified. I do not believe for a second that both the OP and his FC thought it was ok to do this.

 

[rulefan]

You call it practice. I don't.
His ball was in a ditch and he teed up a new ball. That's not practice.

If we go by your reasoning, anyone that tees up again without declaring a provisional ball can just claim to be "practicing" and take a general play penalty if they balloon the reload oob and find the first ball. Hence instead of being 5 of the tee they are playing their 2nd shot and add the penalty once hole played.

The DQ was fully justified. I do not believe for a second that both the OP and his FC thought it was ok to do this.

Are you saying that the player teed up his ball on the ladies' tee with the intention of continuing the round with that second ball?

If he intended to play the second ball over the ditch and succeeded, why on earth would he drop and play his first ball?

Incidentally, if he was intending to take a 'false provisional', why did he play it from the ladies' tee?

Edit: Rule 6.1b is concerned with starting a hole. The hole was started when the first stroke was made. 6.1 does not apply to this case.

 

[chrisd]

You call it practice. I don't.
His ball was in a ditch and he teed up a new ball. That's not practice.

If we go by your reasoning, anyone that tees up again without declaring a provisional ball can just claim to be "practicing" and take a general play penalty if they balloon the reload oob and find the first ball. Hence instead of being 5 of the tee they are playing their 2nd shot and add the penalty once hole played.

The DQ was fully justified. I do not believe for a second that both the OP and his FC thought it was ok to do this.

I find your reasoning somewhat strange in that the OP made the circumstances absolutely clear as to what happened and this allowed Colin to give the factual ruling with absolute knowledge of the facts.

I think you're doing, and what is often done in the rules section, by ignoring the facts as given and replacing the scenario with a different set of circumstances which may,or may not, be decided differently

 

[rulefan]

I find your reasoning somewhat strange in that the OP made the circumstances absolutely clear as to what happened and this allowed Colin to give the factual ruling with absolute knowledge of the facts.

I think you're doing, and what is often done in the rules section, by ignoring the facts as given and replacing the scenario with a different set of circumstances which may,or may not, be decided differently

I think you posted as I was editing the above post. I reckon 6.1 cannot apply anyway.

 

[Colin L]

You call it practice. I don't.
His ball was in a ditch and he teed up a new ball. That's not practice.

If we go by your reasoning, anyone that tees up again without declaring a provisional ball can just claim to be "practicing" and take a general play penalty if they balloon the reload oob and find the first ball. Hence instead of being 5 of the tee they are playing their 2nd shot and add the penalty once hole played.

The DQ was fully justified. I do not believe for a second that both the OP and his FC thought it was ok to do this.

We were told that the Committee disqualified the player under Rule 6.1b(2). As was explained in post #9 and reiterated by rule fan above, when the player hit a ball off the red tee he was not starting the hole and so that rule was not applicable. The DQ was based on a misapplication of it.

Under what rule are you saying a DQ was justified?

 

[Beware-the-3putt]

We have no FACTS on this. We have one person's version and little in terms of how the situation was reported, investigated or the reason behind the final outcome.

To try to defend and give a 'get out' for the DQ is plain stupid.

If the OP had said "why did you hit driver, you can't clear the ditch" and the FC teed up and hit from the white tees would this be classed as "practice"?
This was not hitting a ball back to someone or into a practice range, it was not between holes, it was not prior to playing a strokeplay event or during a weather delay or such like. It sounds like the player sourced a new ball from his bag after hitting his tee shot into a penalty area. There is no justification for someone losing a ball, going into their bag and getting another and playing it, whether from white tees, yellow tees or any other part of the course. You ask me to provide rules. You provide a rule which entitles a competitor to hit practice balls when a ball is lost and enable them to claim the ball is not the ball in play. The initial ball is in a ditch. Hitting a different ball, retrieved from their bag, puts that ball in play.

Someone asks what rule to DQ under. I'd personally do it under rule 1.3b but without full access to the details of the incident it's hard to say. What i can say with certainty is the DQ was warranted and should possibly have included to OP for standing by and participating.

 

[rulefan]

We have no FACTS on this. We have one person's version and little in terms of how the situation was reported, investigated or the reason behind the final outcome.

To try to defend and give a 'get out' for the DQ is plain stupid.

If the OP had said "why did you hit driver, you can't clear the ditch" and the FC teed up and hit from the white tees would this be classed as "practice"?
This was not hitting a ball back to someone or into a practice range, it was not between holes, it was not prior to playing a strokeplay event or during a weather delay or such like. It sounds like the player sourced a new ball from his bag after hitting his tee shot into a penalty area. There is no justification for someone losing a ball, going into their bag and getting another and playing it, whether from white tees, yellow tees or any other part of the course. You ask me to provide rules. You provide a rule which entitles a competitor to hit practice balls when a ball is lost and enable them to claim the ball is not the ball in play. The initial ball is in a ditch. Hitting a different ball, retrieved from their bag, puts that ball in play.

No rule permits that but 5.5a specifically prohibits it.

Someone asks what rule to DQ under. I'd personally do it under rule 1.3b but without full access to the details of the incident it's hard to say. What i can say with certainty is the DQ was warranted and should possibly have included to OP for standing by and participating.

So you agree it wasn't 6.1? Are you sure the player knew he had breached a rule?

Under what circumstances would you say a player has made a practice stroke?

But you haven't yet explained why the player would do such a thing if he did not intend to continue with the second ball. Nor have you explained why he would want to continue with it before he played it. What advantage would it have given him?

 

[chrisd]

We have no FACTS on this. We have one person's version and little in terms of how the situation was reported, investigated or the reason behind the final outcome.

To try to defend and give a 'get out' for the DQ is plain stupid.

If the OP had said "why did you hit driver, you can't clear the ditch" and the FC teed up and hit from the white tees would this be classed as "practice"?
This was not hitting a ball back to someone or into a practice range, it was not between holes, it was not prior to playing a strokeplay event or during a weather delay or such like. It sounds like the player sourced a new ball from his bag after hitting his tee shot into a penalty area. There is no justification for someone losing a ball, going into their bag and getting another and playing it, whether from white tees, yellow tees or any other part of the course. You ask me to provide rules. You provide a rule which entitles a competitor to hit practice balls when a ball is lost and enable them to claim the ball is not the ball in play. The initial ball is in a ditch. Hitting a different ball, retrieved from their bag, puts that ball in play.

Someone asks what rule to DQ under. I'd personally do it under rule 1.3b but without full access to the details of the incident it's hard to say. What i can say with certainty is the DQ was warranted and should possibly have included to OP for standing by and participating.

Sorry, this is a rules forum, the players tell the story and the answers are given accordingly. No one assumes that the story is incorrect or lied about.

You are asking for different answers to different scenarios.

Colin is one of the best referees on the forum and he gave an exact answer to a specific set of circumstances, in this case the players did something they shouldn't have done in a competition and was at best, daft, but the penalty as confirmed by Colin was absolutely correct and all you're doing is adding different "what iffs" to the fact to change the penalty applied.

 

[Beware-the-3putt]

No rule permits that but 5.5a specifically prohibits it.



So you agree it wasn't 6.1? Are you sure the player knew he had breached a rule?

Under what circumstances would you say a player has made a practice stroke?

But you haven't yet explained why the player would do such a thing if he did not intend to continue with the second ball. Nor have you explained why he would want to continue with it before he played it. What advantage would it have given him?

He didn't clear the ditch with the 2nd ball, so nobody knows what would have happened if he did.

I can't explain something when I don't have all the details. I will ask again, what makes a ball a "practice" ball? How do you declare such a thing, given it's prohibited?

If you hit a ball off the tee and proceed to tee up a 2nd ball without stating it is a provisional ball, it becomes the ball in play. Is this correct? I see no valid reason for the ball to be deemed as a "practice" ball.

 

[Beware-the-3putt]

Sorry, this is a rules forum, the players tell the story and the answers are given accordingly. No one assumes that the story is incorrect or lied about.

You are asking for different answers to different scenarios.

Colin is one of the best referees on the forum and he gave an exact answer to a specific set of circumstances, in this case the players did something they shouldn't have done in a competition and was at best, daft, but the penalty as confirmed by Colin was absolutely correct and all you're doing is adding different "what iffs" to the fact to change the penalty applied.

So you agree the players were at fault. Thank you for agreeing.

My scenarios were to clarify a glaring error in the guidance provided. Fetching a ball out of your bag when you have hit a ball in a ditch does not make it a "practice" ball and hence "practice" shot.

You hit your ball, you fetch it and hit it again. If you can't find it, you abide by the rules and play accordingly i.e. provisional, 3 min search either find original within the 3 minutes or the provisional is the ball in play. If in a penalty area etc, again abide by rules.

There is absolutely no valid reason for going into your bag and hitting a ball which you wish to declare a "practice" ball.

Its really that straight forward.

 

[chrisd]

So you agree the players were at fault. Thank you for agreeing.

My scenarios were to clarify a glaring error in the guidance provided. Fetching a ball out of your bag when you have hit a ball in a ditch does not make it a "practice" ball and hence "practice" shot.

You hit your ball, you fetch it and hit it again. If you can't find it, you abide by the rules and play accordingly i.e. provisional, 3 min search either find original within the 3 minutes or the provisional is the ball in play. If in a penalty area etc, again abide by rules.

There is absolutely no valid reason for going into your bag and hitting a ball which you wish to declare a "practice" ball.

Its really that straight forward.

Yes the players should not have done anything like they did in the middle of a competition, it was their fault.

It became a practice ball because of the circumstances - it was not a provisional, nor 3 off the tee, it was played off the wrong tee and was not stroke and distance as the first ball wasnt, at the point he played off the wrong tee, a lost, or found, ball. It was a (silly) bet, but only between the two players and not part of their competition but had to be penalised and the answer that was "practising" covers the misdemeanour well as it certainly was not part of the game. .

 

[Beware-the-3putt]

Golf balls are a part of a players equipment. You can't just deem a ball a practice ball during play of a hole, especially when the original ball is in a ditch and it is perfectly plausible that they need to take a penalty drop. The fact they placed it on a tee instead of dropping it opens up a host of other rules breaches. Either way, they have substituted the ball incorrectly, whether they are aware or not. They did not correct the error, nor, I assume, report the error. It's a DQ all day, every day.

Ill let you all continue your fanciful thoughts of this not being a serious breach and a 2 stroke penalty will suffice. Nobody will convince me that neither player knew what they were doing was in some way breaching a rule of golf, unless they were playing for the first time and decided to do so never having watched any golf on TV.

There is no point discussing this any further to be honest. You have your interpretation and I have mine. You believe players can decide to pull out "practice" balls and have a go at some sort of challenge bet during a competition and get a 2 stroke penalty. I think they should be DQ'd.

 

[rulefan]

He didn't clear the ditch with the 2nd ball, so nobody knows what would have happened if he did.

I can't explain something when I don't have all the details. I will ask again, what makes a ball a "practice" ball? How do you declare such a thing, given it's prohibited?

If you hit a ball off the tee and proceed to tee up a 2nd ball without stating it is a provisional ball, it becomes the ball in play. Is this correct? I see no valid reason for the ball to be deemed as a "practice" ball.

From the OP
"He accepted the challenge and he did just about manage to carry it. "

You don't need to declare a practice stroke. What makes you think you do?

He didn't just tee up a 2nd ball, he tried to see if he could clear a ditch from a different place.

Old Decision 30-3f(7) may give an insight into practice strokes.

But you still haven't explained why he would take such action if there was no scoring advantage in his doing it. His only potential gain was practicing.

 

[doublebogey7]

Golf balls are a part of a players equipment. You can't just deem a ball a practice ball during play of a hole, especially when the original ball is in a ditch and it is perfectly plausible that they need to take a penalty drop. The fact they placed it on a tee instead of dropping it opens up a host of other rules breaches. Either way, they have substituted the ball incorrectly, whether they are aware or not. They did not correct the error, nor, I assume, report the error. It's a DQ all day, every day.

Ill let you all continue your fanciful thoughts of this not being a serious breach and a 2 stroke penalty will suffice. Nobody will convince me that neither player knew what they were doing was in some way breaching a rule of golf, unless they were playing for the first time and decided to do so never having watched any golf on TV.

There is no point discussing this any further to be honest. You have your interpretation and I have mine. You believe players can decide to pull out "practice" balls and have a go at some sort of challenge bet during a competition and get a 2 stroke penalty. I think they should be DQ'd.

Rule 5.5a clearly envisages that practising during play of a hole is entirely possible, yet you seem to be completely discounting any such possibility. So please humour me by explaining what you think the rule makers may have been thinking when writing this rule.

 

[Colin L]

Nobody will convince me that neither player knew what they were doing was in some way breaching a rule of golf, unless they were playing for the first time and decided to do so never having watched any golf on TV.
.

That's rich considering that you haven't any coherent idea of the way in which one of those players was breaching the rules (the other not at all, by the way).

 

[Beware-the-3putt]

From the OP
"He accepted the challenge and he did just about manage to carry it. "

You don't need to declare a practice stroke. What makes you think you do?

He didn't just tee up a 2nd ball, he tried to see if he could clear a ditch from a different place.

Old Decision 30-3f(7) may give an insight into practice strokes.

But you still haven't explained why he would take such action if there was no scoring advantage in his doing it. His only potential gain was practicing.

You do realise the "just about" part which you choose not to highlight, in actual fact confirms that he did not carry the ditch from the ladies tee. If I 'just about' hole a putt, it means I've missed the putt. Just about means nearly, so he's back in the ditch a 2nd time.

The ladies tee could easily be in line with his point of entry. As I have stated several times, we do not have the complete picture. His gain would be that he ignored the fact he played a 2nd ball but if it had cleared, which it didn't, who's to say he wouldn't have played this ball?

A practice stroke at a ball you have introduced to the playing area when you have hit a ball into a ditch is not a valid action. I am not advocating that the player had to declare it was a practice stroke as it's against the rules. Why on earth would anyone declare, I am going to break the rules here but it doesn't matter as I'm just practicing.

He introduced a new ball, knowingly or unknowingly, it's against the rules. Why anyone would think otherwise.....well you know the rest.

 

[Beware-the-3putt]

That's rich considering that you haven't any coherent idea of the way in which one of those players was breaching the rules (the other not at all, by the way).

He signed the card knowing he had broken the rules. To day he did not breach any rules is naive in the extreme.

 

[Colin L]

I think you should give it a rest. This is increasingly like protracted trolling.

 

[Beware-the-3putt]

I think you should give it a rest. This is increasingly like protracted trolling.

So you can reply to me but I cannot comment.

Strange outlook to have given you and your entourage are the ones repeatedly asking me to justify my interpretation of someone breaching the rules.

 

[bobmac]

I think a DQ is way over the top.
And was he really praticing?
When else is he going to tee a ball up on the red tee that needed practicing?
A bollocking from the competition secretary would have been ample in this situation.