Declaring a ball lost

[CheltenhamHacker]

That's confusing. How many strokes altogether?

I think he is saying (no idea what the rules make of this)

1. Hit the first ball
2. Hit a provisional
3. Not like the provisional, so hit a new ball, that ISN'T a provisional. Meaning it has to become the one in play, and according to his post, that counts as 3 off the tee.it sounds wrong to me but i have no idea

 

[pogle]

Using this an an example

Player hits tee shot DEEP into the cack, doesn't want to find it
Calls Provisional and hits crap shot 150 ish yards into other cack
Doesn't want either
Therefore ignores and has another go by putting another ball into play. Hopefully actually in play this time

This shows that the Provisional is a "get out of jail" as there is no/less pressure on the shot, if he doesn't like the provisional (which would be 3 off the tee) he gets to put a new ball in play which is also 3 off the tee, having already had 2 "go"s. So he has been let off!.

This, to me at least, seems against the principles if not the rules. It is , as Foxy says, akin to a Second serve.

Which is why I think, in stroke play comps, all players should look for the first ball unless a second ball (not a provisional) is put into play, because the FCs are acting for the rest of the field, It should not be up to the player to encourage FCs not to search for it in stroke play (IMHO). .

See Decision 27-2a/4.

If the first ball is found that is the ball in play. If the first ball isn't found, then the third ball is in play (as it wasn't declared a provisional) and the player has played five. The third ball played has a relationship only to the provisional ball, not the first ball.

 

[freddielong]

I think he is saying (no idea what the rules make of this)

1. Hit the first ball
2. Hit a provisional
3. Not like the provisional, so hit a new ball, that ISN'T a provisional. Meaning it has to become the one in play, and according to his post, that counts as 3 off the tee.it sounds wrong to me but i have no idea

That is not correct once the first ball was "not found" the first provisional ball would be in play and be 3 off the tee if this was also "not found" then the second provisional ball would be in play but would be 5 off the tee. There is no way the 2nd provisional ball can become the ball in play without the loss of the first 2 balls and therefore be 5 off the tee.

 

[North Mimms]

I.e. provisional has no status as 1st ball is still in play but hasn't been looked for yet
Provisos all is just that, not in play until first ball lost, or discounted if another ball put into play.

Pretty sure that's not the case.
No wonder you don't like provisional balls if that's the way you think they work

 

[Foxholer]

Using this an an example

Player hits tee shot DEEP into the cack, doesn't want to find it
Calls Provisional and hits crap shot 150 ish yards into other cack
Doesn't want either
Therefore ignores and has another go by putting another ball into play. Hopefully actually in play this time

This shows that the Provisional is a "get out of jail" as there is no/less pressure on the shot, if he doesn't like the provisional (which would be 3 off the tee) he gets to put a new ball in play which is also 3 off the tee, having already had 2 "go"s. So he has been let off!.

This, to me at least, seems against the principles if not the rules. It is , as Foxy says, akin to a Second serve.

Which is why I think, in stroke play comps, all players should look for the first ball unless a second ball (not a provisional) is put into play, because the FCs are acting for the rest of the field, It should not be up to the player to encourage FCs not to search for it in stroke play (IMHO). .

You have taken my comment out of the context it applied to (Unplayable). While there's an element of that with a good Provisional, the 2 shots it has cost is sufficient punishment imo - though no different to a poor one.

And, from my reading of it, your '2 go-s' is wrong - unless he finds the first and declares it unplayable. A Provisional for a Provisional would be 5 off the tee!

 

[North Mimms]

My mate will be delighted to learn of this new way of not counting provisional Balls until you hit one you like. Must let him know that his 9 off the tee was only a 3!

 

[sev112]

Aha, good clarification - the decision is useful.

I don't tend to hit them in the cack in the first place . Hehe

Thanks for clearing up the hypothetical

 

[delc]

If you hit your original ball into the rubbish, play a provisional, but find your original ball in an unplayable position with the only option being to return to the tee or previous position, it seems a bit ridiculous and time wasting to me that you have to walk back and play another shot with the original ball when you have already played 3 off the tee with the provisional, which amounts to the same thing. Should the rules be amended to allow you to continue with the provisional in this particular circumstance, as you have already taken a stroke and distance penalty?
:mmm:

 

[North Mimms]

If you hit your original ball into the rubbish, play a provisional, but find your original ball in an unplayable position with the only option being to return to the tee or previous position, it seems a bit ridiculous and time wasting to me that you have to walk back and play another shot with the original ball when you have already played 3 off the tee with the provisional, which amounts to the same thing. Should the rules be amended to allow you to continue with the provisional in this particular circumstance?
:mmm:

Nope. Because then you can choose between 2 balls in play

 

[Twire]

If you hit your original ball into the rubbish, play a provisional, but find your original ball in an unplayable position with the only option being to return to the tee or previous position, it seems a bit ridiculous and time wasting to me that you have to walk back and play another shot with the original ball when you have already played 3 off the tee with the provisional, which amounts to the same thing. Should the rules be amended to allow you to continue with the provisional in this particular circumstance, as you have already taken a stroke and distance penalty?
:mmm:

Who decides it's unplayable? The trouble with this scenario is it can be easily abused..... don't quite like the look of my first so I'll play the provo that I smashed down the middle.

Seems you want to make the game easier with provo's as well Del

 

[chrisd]

it seems a bit ridiculous and time wasting to me that you have to walk back and play another shot with the original ball when you have already played 3 off the tee with the provisional, which amounts to the same thing.

:

It hardly would amount to the "same thing" if you go back to the tee, reload, and stuff the ball into an unplayable or unfindable lie!

 

[Foxholer]

If you hit your original ball into the rubbish, play a provisional, but find your original ball in an unplayable position with the only option being to return to the tee or previous position, it seems a bit ridiculous and time wasting to me that you have to walk back and play another shot with the original ball when you have already played 3 off the tee with the provisional, which amounts to the same thing. Should the rules be amended to allow you to continue with the provisional in this particular circumstance, as you have already taken a stroke and distance penalty?
:mmm:

Already covered earlier!
See Post 169 - that references ManinBlack's likewise suggestion.

With Lost Ball, return to previous is ONLY option. With provisional for Unplayable, that would be ADDITIONAL option, something that runs counter to the (non-existent) Spirit of the Game!

 

[delc]

Nope. Because then you can choose between 2 balls in play

Not necessarily a problem. See Decision 27/11.

 

[rickg]

If you hit your original ball into the rubbish, play a provisional, but find your original ball in an unplayable position with the only option being to return to the tee or previous position, it seems a bit ridiculous and time wasting to me that you have to walk back and play another shot with the original ball when you have already played 3 off the tee with the provisional, which amounts to the same thing. Should the rules be amended to allow you to continue with the provisional in this particular circumstance, as you have already taken a stroke and distance penalty?
:mmm:

No.........

Another rule change Del?

 

[North Mimms]

Not necessarily a problem. See Decision 27/11.

I'll concede that, but it has nothing to do with the situtation under discussion. Why introduce a red herring into the discussion and cause more confusion?

 

[delc]

No.........

Another rule change Del?

Just a suggestion for speeding up the funerial pace of the game at the moment!

 

[rickg]

Just a suggestion for speeding up the funerial pace of the game at the moment!

Your pace of play is probably slow due to all the decisions you have to consult.. There seems to be an incident on every hole with you!

 

[Foxholer]

Not necessarily a problem. See Decision 27/11.

Another classic DelC Quantum Leap of Misinterpretation!

27/11 has absolutely nothing to do with the intra-thread discussion -using Provisional for Unplayable!! That's why it's a Rule 27 Decision as opposed to a Rule 28 one!

 

[delc]

Another classic DelC Quantum Leap of Misinterpretation!

27/11 has absolutely to do with the intra-thread discussion -using Provisional for Unplayable!! That's why it's a Rule 27 Decision as opposed to a Rule 28 one!

Under Decision 27/11 (provisional ball not distinguishable from original ball), you do have a choice of which ball to play, as long as you take the stroke and distance penalty, so it is an analogous situation.

 

[North Mimms]

Under Decision 27/11 (provisional ball not distinguishable from original ball), you do have a choice of which ball to play, as long as you take the stroke and distance penalty, so it is an analogous situation.

No it is merely confusing the issue under debate