Declaring a ball lost

[North Mimms]

as this thread should have made clear, it should never cause a 5 min hold up - he's either going to find it straight away or you will have continued with your provisional (playing however many strokes as required to create a lost ball!)

now, if he finds it straight away and you decide to go back to the tee that may be 5min, but you don't need to have hit a provisional to create that problem!

I agree, if he wants to tramp round the clag looking for a hopeless ball, I'm going to carry on with my game!

 

[sev112]

Sev,
If my FC chooses, within the rules, to manage his game by not looking for his original ball, by what right and under what rule should I interfere with his choice?

And what is he being "let off" with? He is going to be playing his 4th stroke with the provisional ball as opposed to his 2nd if he found and played his original.

The fact that until the ball is actually lost, then the provisional ball has no status (other than being a provisional) and there is still a ball in play (albeit not found yet); all of the examples previously in this thread have a "better" provisional, and mostly a "miles better" provisional. IF the original ball is found, the provisional doesn't exist. The player either takes the one in the cack, or goes back and hopes they can hit the replaced ball better than the provisional, probably unlikely.

That's why I implied/suggested that they were being let off if they don't look.

The provisional rule isn't there to save you from a really bad lie, it is to speed up play. A replaced ball is the correct approach for a ball in a really bad lie. hence someone calling provisional then walking past is, theoretically not working within the intent of the rules ?

Personally I think something as key as this shouldn't come down to what people think is the gentelemany thing to do. Yet the rules and decisions seem light on this ?

 

[Colin L]

The Rules are entirely silent on requiring you to search for your ball. They do tell us that if we play a provisional ball from nearer the hole than where your original is likely to be, the original ball is lost. Implicit in that is the approval of a player choosing not to search for his original ball.

The Rules are just as silent on other players being required or forbidden to search for your ball. It is entirely up to them but I have never encountered anyone not willing to search. Nor have I encountered or heard of players in stroke play deliberately searching for a fellow competitor's ball when asked not to.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Typical example today of using the rules to advantage on this matter. On par 5 a FC hits his second close to or in deep stuff. Clear problems and pretty obvious that even if found and playable third shot going to be tres difficult. FC plays a provisional and sticks it to 10ft. He and I have very cursory look in general area where original might have been but basically we ignored it and I certainly didn't look for it. As it happens I'm guessing we could probably have found his ball if we'd spent more than the 10secs we spent walking through the general area his ball might have been. We only looked in an OK area and certainly didn't venture near the deeper stuff where it likely sat.

As it happens he missed his putt for a 5. But in his head he had an 'eagle' putt (or a par 5). Even the 6 was OK - the (gross 'eagle') 5 would have given him a real boost.

 

[ManinBlack]

Typical example today of using the rules to advantage on this matter. On par 5 a FC hits his second close to or in deep stuff. Clear problems and pretty obvious that even if found and playable third shot going to be tres difficult. FC plays a provisional and sticks it to 10ft. He and I have very cursory look in general area where original might have been but basically we ignored it and I certainly didn't look for it. As it happens I'm guessing we could probably have found his ball if we'd spent more than the 10secs we spent walking through the general area his ball might have been. We only looked in an OK area and certainly didn't venture near the deeper stuff where it likely sat.

As it happens he missed his putt for a 5. But in his head he had an 'eagle' putt (or a par 5). Even the 6 was OK - the (gross 'eagle') 5 would have given him a real boost.

In the light of the above then the only fair way would be to change the rules so that a provisional can be played for a ball that may be lost or​ ​unplayable. The object is to save time walking back to the point where the previous shot was played. I personally don't see anything wrong with that. Granted, with a provisional in play, you know where your shot has gone before deciding whether the first ball is unplayable but it's still a two stroke penalty.

 

[FairwayDodger]

The Rules are just as silent on other players being required or forbidden to search for your ball. It is entirely up to them but I have never encountered anyone not willing to search. Nor have I encountered or heard of players in stroke play deliberately searching for a fellow competitor's ball when asked not to.

Playing an open a couple of years ago, an angry woman returned to the tee we were about to play from for a reload. She was raging! Turned out she'd hit her first into deep trouble and then a provisional on the fairway. The club had helpful members out ball spotting and she had asked the guy on this hole not to look. He'd ignored her and found it.

Seems to me that's the whole point of ball spotters!

 

[AmandaJR]

Had this occur yesterday and thought I was right but unsure and rule book not overly helpful and Decisions too heavy to carry!

Foursomes champs and my partner hit into the rubbish off the 17th tee. It was unlikely to have found its way out so I took a provisional, declared it as such, and nailed it. So as we walk I say to her we need to make a quick decision as to whether we even look for the original and, if found, would no doubt be an unplayable and possible relief but if not a reload. We decided the provisional was the best outcome, even if we found the original and a 2 club relief was viable, so proceeded along those lines. Our FC felt we had to look for it having declared a provisional rather than declaring a reload. The conversation ensued and I was sure but not so sure as to press the point (weakling!). We proceeded to have a cursory look, didn't find it, and the provisional was in play.

At lunch (36 hole comp) I checked the decisions book and found the relevant ruling to show them but they still seemed to believe their original belief!!

So, to clarify once and for all (and so next time I'll be adamant and not a weakling!) - I was correct in how I wished to proceed??

 

[North Mimms]

Had this occur yesterday and thought I was right but unsure and rule book not overly helpful and Decisions too heavy to carry!

Foursomes champs and my partner hit into the rubbish off the 17th tee. It was unlikely to have found its way out so I took a provisional, declared it as such, and nailed it. So as we walk I say to her we need to make a quick decision as to whether we even look for the original and, if found, would no doubt be an unplayable and possible relief but if not a reload. We decided the provisional was the best outcome, even if we found the original and a 2 club relief was viable, so proceeded along those lines. Our FC felt we had to look for it having declared a provisional rather than declaring a reload. The conversation ensued and I was sure but not so sure as to press the point (weakling!). We proceeded to have a cursory look, didn't find it, and the provisional was in play.

At lunch (36 hole comp) I checked the decisions book and found the relevant ruling to show them but they still seemed to believe their original belief!!

So, to clarify once and for all (and so next time I'll be adamant and not a weakling!) - I was correct in how I wished to proceed??

You don't have to look for it.
They can if they want- in strokeplay most wont, in matchplay they might.

You can render the first ball lost by playing the provisionlal if it's further foreward than likely position of 1st- however if you are in matchplay, you can't play out of turn, and your opponents might not be playing their ball because they're looking for your first!

 

[Foxholer]

In the light of the above then the only fair way would be to change the rules so that a provisional can be played for a ball that may be lost or​ ​unplayable. The object is to save time walking back to the point where the previous shot was played. I personally don't see anything wrong with that. Granted, with a provisional in play, you know where your shot has gone before deciding whether the first ball is unplayable but it's still a two stroke penalty.

Yes and no! We used to play this way in bounce games as it sped play up and was meant to be enjoyable! But there are other options for the Unplayable and it moves the 'provisional' far closer to the 'second serve' (or at least further option) type of situation.

For a ball lost or OOB, there is only 1 option - return to last shot, which a provisional simply anticipates/plans for. A provisional for unplayable is a step too far imo.

Btw It's a 1 shot Penalty, though probably a 2 shot 'cost'.

 

[AmandaJR]

You don't have to look for it.
They can if they want- in strokeplay most wont, in matchplay they might.

You can render the first ball lost by playing the provisionlal if it's further foreward than likely position of 1st- however if you are in matchplay, you can't play out of turn, and your opponents might not be playing their ball because they're looking for your first!

Thanks for the clarification. We're both fairly fit so could have run to the provisional To be fair our FC were doubtful of my explanation of the rule - sadly they probably still would be should it occur again!

 

[duncan mackie]

.... however if you are in matchplay, you can't play out of turn, and your opponents might not be playing their ball because they're looking for your first!

this is incorrect as presented. You can play a stroke at your provisional and it becomes the ball in play providing the stroke was from in front etc

they may recall the shot, but it's been played and the first ball became lost when the stroke was made.

you real problem is when your provisional doesn't get as far as the point the first ball is believed to be in a matchplay situation - the first shot doesn't render it lost and will keep being recalled (until you miss hit it!).

 

[North Mimms]

this is incorrect as presented. You can play a stroke at your provisional and it becomes the ball in play providing the stroke was from in front etc

they may recall the shot, but it's been played and the first ball became lost when the stroke was made.

you real problem is when your provisional doesn't get as far as the point the first ball is believed to be in a matchplay situation - the first shot doesn't render it lost and will keep being recalled (until you miss hit it!).

Interesting point Duncan. I knew they could recall the shot if you played out of turn but didn't realise that it would still render the ball lost (which was the whole point of playing out of turn).

Another nugget to store away for future reference

 

[sev112]

Typical example today of using the rules to advantage on this matter. On par 5 a FC hits his second close to or in deep stuff. Clear problems and pretty obvious that even if found and playable third shot going to be tres difficult. FC plays a provisional and sticks it to 10ft. He and I have very cursory look in general area where original might have been but basically we ignored it and I certainly didn't look for it. As it happens I'm guessing we could probably have found his ball if we'd spent more than the 10secs we spent walking through the general area his ball might have been. We only looked in an OK area and certainly didn't venture near the deeper stuff where it likely sat.

As it happens he missed his putt for a 5. But in his head he had an 'eagle' putt (or a par 5). Even the 6 was OK - the (gross 'eagle') 5 would have given him a real boost.

Using this an an example

Player hits tee shot DEEP into the cack, doesn't want to find it
Calls Provisional and hits crap shot 150 ish yards into other cack
Doesn't want either
Therefore ignores and has another go by putting another ball into play. Hopefully actually in play this time

This shows that the Provisional is a "get out of jail" as there is no/less pressure on the shot, if he doesn't like the provisional (which would be 3 off the tee) he gets to put a new ball in play which is also 3 off the tee, having already had 2 "go"s. So he has been let off!.

This, to me at least, seems against the principles if not the rules. It is , as Foxy says, akin to a Second serve.

Which is why I think, in stroke play comps, all players should look for the first ball unless a second ball (not a provisional) is put into play, because the FCs are acting for the rest of the field, It should not be up to the player to encourage FCs not to search for it in stroke play (IMHO). .

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Using this an an example

Player hits tee shot DEEP into the cack, doesn't want to find it
Calls Provisional and hits crap shot 150 ish yards into other cack
Doesn't want either
Therefore ignores and has another go by putting another ball into play. Hopefully actually in play this time

This shows that the Provisional is a "get out of jail" as there is no/less pressure on the shot, if he doesn't like the provisional (which would be 3 off the tee) he gets to put a new ball in play which is also 3 off the tee, having already had 2 "go"s. So he has been let off!.

This, to me at least, seems against the principles if not the rules. It is , as Foxy says, akin to a Second serve.

Which is why I think, in stroke play comps, all players should look for the first ball unless a second ball (not a provisional) is put into play, because the FCs are acting for the rest of the field, It should not be up to the player to encourage FCs not to search for it in stroke play (IMHO). .

eh? 2nd provisional is 5 off the tee? If he ignores first two balls as he doesn't fancy either he is then playing 6 off his 2nd provisional; or if his 3rd go is ball in play and not declared a provisional - still playing 5 off the tee.

 

[atticusfinch]

See rule 27-2a (note).

The only way a stroke at a provisional is ignored is if the ball it was the provisional for is found, usually the original. With multiple provisionals the score keeps mounting.

 

[sev112]

Using this an an example

Player hits tee shot DEEP into the cack, doesn't want to find it
Calls Provisional and hits crap shot 150 ish yards into other cack
Doesn't want either
Therefore ignores and has another go by putting another ball into play. Hopefully actually in play this time

This shows that the Provisional is a "get out of jail" as there is no/less pressure on the shot, if he doesn't like the provisional (which would be 3 off the tee) he gets to put a new ball in play which is also 3 off the tee, having already had 2 "go"s. So he has been let off!.

This, to me at least, seems against the principles if not the rules. It is , as Foxy says, akin to a Second serve.

Which is why I think, in stroke play comps, all players should look for the first ball unless a second ball (not a provisional) is put into play, because the FCs are acting for the rest of the field, It should not be up to the player to encourage FCs not to search for it in stroke play (IMHO). .

He is not playing a second provisional - he is putting another ball into play, ignoring the crap provisional, therefore playing 3 off the tee for the 2nd ball

 

[sev112]

I.e. provisional has no status as 1st ball is still in play but hasn't been looked for yet
Provisos all is just that, not in play until first ball lost, or discounted if another ball put into play.

 

[atticusfinch]

That's confusing. How many strokes altogether?

 

[palindromicbob]

eh? 2nd provisional is 5 off the tee? If he ignores first two balls as he doesn't fancy either he is then playing 6 off his 2nd provisional; or if his 3rd go is ball in play and not declared a provisional - still playing 5 off the tee.

In this situation I'd go looking for the first. If you find it the option is there to return to the tee and have another go taking you 3rd form the tee.

Always use the rules to your advantage

 

[Colin L]

I.e. provisional has no status as 1st ball is still in play but hasn't been looked for yet
Provisos all is just that, not in play until first ball lost, or discounted if another ball put into play.

You have picked up a completely wrong understanding. A provisional does have status as soon as it is played - it is a ball provisionally in play. It is discounted only if the original ball is found

When you put that 3rd ball into play it is related to the provisional ball. The provisional has to be counted in. Your idea of discounting the crappy provisional is an ingenious way of trying to work a mulligan into the rules - but you're not going to get away with that.