Death of the milled putter?

[Fyldewhite]

I've used Odyssey with insert for probably 15 years. Had quite a few different models but have tried milled too. Currently have a Scotty Cameron Red-X which I've given every chance to work but I still go back to the inserts (Versa #7 presently).

It contradicts many opinions on here but it is my distance control that is the problem. I am fine using any putter from 10 feet in but put me further away and I find it much easier to lag the putt with the insert putters......and I do lag longer putts so maybe that's why? With the milled face I always end up sending the odd one 4/5/6 foot past.

Interesting article but putters are so personal that I'd be very suprised to see them die out. May get (even) more expensive but there will always be a market.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Love the feel and now I've installed a pro-core insert (http://procoregolf.com/) I am getting better results, especially on off centre hits. It's a staying put now.

Should you not have to put #sp to indicate a sponsor of yours Homer?

 

[Hobbit]

I should have made clear I was talking about the soft kind of insert, don't think they're a good idea at all, except for, possibly, short putts where a firm stroke is needed.

Mmm, I think its the length of the grass on the green that has by far the greater influence on how hard you need to hit the ball.

And my own putter has a soft insert in it. My putting average over the last few years is a smidge over 28 putts per round, and making it through to the final of Britain's Best Putter at the Belfry... I'd say its learning the feel irrespective of the insert.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Should you not have to put #sp to indicate a sponsor of yours Homer?

Just a great bit of kit. Again, like Aimpoint and other things, I can't see how you can comment or knock it without seeing it and trying.

 

[Foxholer]

I should have made clear I was talking about the soft kind of insert, don't think they're a good idea at all, except for, possibly, short putts where a firm stroke is needed.

Still a personal 'feel' thing imo. And the type of ball used could well have an influence too. with a Callaway or Nike rock, I'd be tempted more down the 'use insert to soften' road; with a soft ball, i'd go more hard-faced/insert.

Should you not have to put #sp to indicate a sponsor of yours Homer?

Who's 'sponsoring' who? Though have often thought there could be deals to be done - and haggle-ing doesn't seem out of the question!

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

I wasn't being overly serious giys, apologies! Just in reference to homer getting that kit for free, previously, i believe? (Apologies if i'm mistaken, would make my joke a waste of time!)

For the record Homer, i'm very much into new technology, and would happily look into aimpoint etc

 

[SocketRocket]

So we take a putter face that has no insert and a flat surface. We now run a milling cutter over it with a fast feed rate so it produces some crude tool overlap marks.

Please can someone explain to me how the milled face makes it easier to putt?

 

[Foxholer]

So we take a putter face that has no insert and a flat surface. We now run a milling cutter over it with a fast feed rate so it produces some crude tool overlap marks.

Please can someone explain to me how the milled face makes it easier to putt?

It's not so much the 'milled face' of the putter, though there are those who believe that's what makes the difference between theirs and the oppositions. It's the 'Milled Putter' - which is carving the head out of a raw lump of metal!

If you have a look at the faces of Bettinardi Putters, there's nothing 'crude' about that milling!

As i posted earlier, it's not essential that the surface be absolutely glass flat. The putter face is not exactly striking a perfectly round object, sitting on a perfectly flat surface in the first place!

 

[SocketRocket]

It's not so much the 'milled face' of the putter, though there are those who believe that's what makes the difference between theirs and the oppositions. It's the 'Milled Putter' - which is carving the head out of a raw lump of metal!

If you have a look at the faces of Bettinardi Putters, there's nothing 'crude' about that milling!

As i posted earlier, it's not essential that the surface be absolutely glass flat. The putter face is not exactly striking a perfectly round object, sitting on a perfectly flat surface in the first place!

Just looked at the 'Bettinardi' putters. They do in fact have a course milled surface finish, that quality of milling would never be acceptable in any precision Engineered component unless it was purely for atheistic purpose.

I still cannot understand how milling the putter head from a solid piece of raw bar will create something that has enhanced performance over a cast or forged part. OK, running a face mill over the putting surface at a fine feed rate will flatten the surface and remove any minor irregularities. I am still not convinced it is not merely expensive hype.

 

[Foxholer]

Just looked at the 'Bettinardi' putters. They do in fact have a course milled surface finish, that quality of milling would never be acceptable in any precision Engineered component unless it was purely for atheistic purpose.

I still cannot understand how milling the putter head from a solid piece of raw bar will create something that has enhanced performance over a cast or forged part. OK, running a face mill over the putting surface at a fine feed rate will flatten the surface and remove any minor irregularities. I am still not convinced it is not merely expensive hype.

Er. That milling IS quite precise (relatively speaking). A myriad of hexagonal 'B's. Sure, the face ends up not flat, but it doesn't need to be. There is nowhere near the need for precision required for a Putter head as there is for most motor parts, for example.

The USP of the milled putter is that it comes from a single, forged, block as opposed to the 'cobbled together' nature of other methods.

And there is certainly a lot of hype involved. As posted earlier, there's nothing 'magic' about 303 Stainless - apart from the ease with which it can be milled!

 

[SocketRocket]

Er. That milling IS quite precise (relatively speaking). A myriad of hexagonal 'B's. Sure, the face ends up not flat, but it doesn't need to be. There is nowhere near the need for precision required for a Putter head as there is for most motor parts, for example.

The USP of the milled putter is that it comes from a single, forged, block as opposed to the 'cobbled together' nature of other methods.

And there is certainly a lot of hype involved. As posted earlier, there's nothing 'magic' about 303 Stainless - apart from the ease with which it can be milled!

Milling is simply a method of removing areas of a piece of raw material. In the case of a putter head It may be a forging, a casting or machined from solid. Considering the very low impact of a putter with the golf ball I see little advantage for any of these processes, they will of course have different costs involved due to the time and tooling involved.

CNC Milling is a faster process with good repeatability as the process is governed by a computerised program that drives the machine tool as regards the possible errors involved with manually turning of handles on the Mill. I am not aware of any 'cobbled together' methods to manufacture a putter.

When I say the surface of the putter face is created with a course surface finish I am not suggesting it does not have pretty patterns over it, rather I am suggesting the coarse surface finish (in my opinion) lends nothing to the way it will impact the ball.

 

[Foxholer]

Pretty much in agreement there.

I believe CNC Milling is used for the finishing of such Putters. How the bulk of the material is removed, I'm not sure, but wouldn't be surprised if CNC Milling is used for that too. It is, after all, a pretty standard engineering process. Bettinardi, who actually Mills the entire club (hosel and all) actually started as a Miller who got into making Putters. Here's an interesting article that also confirms the story I'd heard about the putter that made Scotty famous! http://www.golfconversations.com/2011/09/12/robert-bettinardi-a-millers-tale/. and can you spot the error? Oh, and even with that honeycomb, the face is pretty flat - maybe even to within .001".

I've seen pics of how another Putter I own (my Winter 'Gamer') was carved out of a single block, Betti style - the hosel would be welded, but mine's Centre Shafted.

By 'cobbled', I mean several bits produced separately and assembled. I exclude 'inserts' from that, though others might consider them separate bits.

 

[Sweep]

So we take a putter face that has no insert and a flat surface. We now run a milling cutter over it with a fast feed rate so it produces some crude tool overlap marks.

Please can someone explain to me how the milled face makes it easier to putt?

Dunno, but I do like the feel.
Having used a Becu head Ping Pal 4 for 20+ years (smooth face), I recently tried a TM Ghost (with insert) and a Scotty (milled). Whilst the Ping and TM certainly have their good points, there is no doubt the Scotty feels so much better. It is actually a joy to putt with and the way the ball comes of the face is wonderful.
Oh, and inserts certainly are separate bits...

 

[SocketRocket]

Dunno, but I do like the feel.
Having used a Becu head Ping Pal 4 for 20+ years (smooth face), I recently tried a TM Ghost (with insert) and a Scotty (milled). Whilst the Ping and TM certainly have their good points, there is no doubt the Scotty feels so much better. It is actually a joy to putt with and the way the ball comes of the face is wonderful.
Oh, and inserts certainly are separate bits...

I would suggest its nothing to do with the milling but down to the design and balance of the putter.

 

[Foxholer]

I would suggest its nothing to do with the milling but down to the design and balance of the putter.

And the actual material involved.

BeCu is a soft alloy - well, softer than Steel - so good for those who want a duller (softer?) feel.

I had 2 otherwise identical BHB05s a while ago, one SS, the other CC. There was a noticeable difference in the feel. There's some on WRX who reckon they could tell the difference between the same Steel from different countries!

I'm pretty sure I'd have preferred Sweep's BeCu to the Steel (certainly from a value point of view) as the Steel Pings (which were Cast btw) sprang off the face too fiercely for me - certainly Ansers. Had a MnBr B60 that worked quite well for a while - loaned it to a Pro and never got it back!

Yeah. Inserts really are separate bits. Not counting them just allows Bettinardi to push the 'out of a single block' USP. The TeI3 putters he made for Scotty were precision milled, so didn't need the (Elastomer?) surround that the ones produced by Scotty used.

 

[harpo_72]

Sorry milling from a billet seems a waste of time and recouping waste material expensive. He buys extruded steel and then chops them into blocks and mills from there. What a waste of time, surely he casts or forges to the basic shape and uses the milling as a finishing process. His amount of waste material would be minimised !
Sorry but I find also this cobblers, just use what feels right and works how the thing is made is of no relevance. This is a hunk of metal on a stick, and the stick can affect the feel as well. Your talking about something that is so simple like it was a great manufacturing masterpiece...
Go buy an automatic watch and look at the manufacturing on that and the tolerances, then think 200 + years ago they were making mechanisms by hand. That gents is manufacturing.

 

[Foxholer]

Sorry milling from a billet seems a waste of time and recouping waste material expensive. He buys extruded steel and then chops them into blocks and mills from there. What a waste of time, surely he casts or forges to the basic shape and uses the milling as a finishing process. His amount of waste material would be minimised !

Quite possibly, (63%) discarded from the process - but recovered/recycled - but that provides a USP that he perceives is advantageous. The 'including hosel' actually came about by chance when the Welder he'd previously used was closing and he looked at options.

Sorry but I find also this cobblers, just use what feels right and works how the thing is made is of no relevance. This is a hunk of metal on a stick, and the stick can affect the feel as well. Your talking about something that is so simple like it was a great manufacturing masterpiece...

Totally agree!

Though, oddly enough, I find the putters I like the feel of best tend to be milled, or milled style, ones.

 

[harpo_72]

Recovering the sworf is easy, but the cost of melting it down again is high and the possibility of imperfections is higher ... So one putter could look the same but feel completely different etc...

 

[Foxholer]

Recovering the sworf is easy, but the cost of melting it down again is high and the possibility of imperfections is higher ... So one putter could look the same but feel completely different etc...

I think it's sent away!

He's a Miller; not a melter! so only uses 'virgin' blocks - I think they come in some sort of rough shape rather than as billet/lengths.

Been thinking about the process though - 42mins to carve a head (18 heads per shift)! Is that good use of a $350k (and that's apparently quite cheap) machine (payback 3-4 years?). Probably needs quite a few of them to produce the quantity actually demanded.