Current Handicap System

[Herbie]

A Bandit is a term associated with a player who plays a round better than they normally do, but it is sometimes used to describe an outright cheat by people who are not likely to say so. A cheat is a cheat by their deliberate actions.

The Logistics of every round being carded and checked for h/c continuity would be difficult.

After a win, if life is made harder for the golfer then they are more likely to work harder to keep their new impressive h/c or to compete more to get their h/c up to a competitive level again, all of which is good for golf.

Losing point 1 or 2 after winning a comp is laughable.

Docking half the strokes they came in under h/c to win is probably the best way Ive considered. just imagine a 24h/c player comming in 10 under h/c to win a comp, suddenly becomming a 19 h/c.

I say make h/c life harder for everyone respectively, if people struggle to play to h/c thats how it should be and anyone who consistantly plays below h/c frequently should have a lower h/c, myself included.

There are lots of us on here shooting below frequently when you should only do this occasionally.

My h/c is wrong for my frequent ability, but perhaps in relation to everyone else its balanced on paper, but its never balanced on the course.

Difficulty is a great leveler

 

[Parmo]

I've just about to put my first ever 3 cards in and no doubt will end up with 28 (though the comp sec says not a cat in hells chance)!! I know I can play a lot better and everyone said just put them in and win a few comps and over the next year it will balance out, told my mate this who watched me blast a 280 yard drive straight down the 2nd and he wasn’t impressed!! Lol bandit Parmo. In my case it can not be helped, I was nervous playing with strangers and the added pressure of it being a hcp card bent me over. I might scrap the last card and use one this weekend… my first comp 4th April!!!

 

[EchtLoon]

It would be impossible to police I wouldn't want to remove someones handicap because they hadn't played enough - I like the US system but it would not work in the UK the courses are to diverse and weather so changeable - I do beleive that the R & A are looking into the current system,

Isnt this season the first where you get an "I" next to your name if you have not played enough comps for local major ones? It is at my course to stop people just turning up 3-4 times a year on bandit handicaps and winning everything then going back to their home club on the real hcp, we have loads of people like this due to being a municipal, bandits the lot of them *shakes fist**

What happens with away players? For example, my course in Aberdeenshire sees me two weeks of the season, and sometimes only one, how do they know that I've been handing in cards regularly?

 

[SammmeBee]

It would be impossible to police I wouldn't want to remove someones handicap because they hadn't played enough - I like the US system but it would not work in the UK the courses are to diverse and weather so changeable - I do beleive that the R & A are looking into the current system,

Isnt this season the first where you get an "I" next to your name if you have not played enough comps for local major ones? It is at my course to stop people just turning up 3-4 times a year on bandit handicaps and winning everything then going back to their home club on the real hcp, we have loads of people like this due to being a municipal, bandits the lot of them *shakes fist**

What happens with away players? For example, my course in Aberdeenshire sees me two weeks of the season, and sometimes only one, how do they know that I've been handing in cards regularly?

Because with the centralised system they can check online or without the advance in technology just use the telephone.....

 

[viscount17]

Losing point 1 or 2 after winning a comp is laughable.

this is true only for group 1 or group 2 one under CSS

Docking half the strokes they came in under h/c to win is probably the best way Ive considered. just imagine a 24h/c player comming in 10 under h/c to win a comp, suddenly becomming a 19 h/c.

a group 4 coming in 10 under is going to be docked 4 (10 x 0.4),

increases for anyone are only 0.1

are you sure your club is applying handicap changes properly?

the only other sport I know with a 'similar' handicap system is croquet (my brother plays) - and they have just as much trouble with bandits and bandit clubs

 

[SammmeBee]

I say make h/c life harder for everyone respectively, if people struggle to play to h/c thats how it should be and anyone who consistantly plays below h/c frequently should have a lower h/c, myself included.

There are lots of us on here shooting below frequently when you should only do this occasionally.

But if these people are playing in competitions regularly then they would get cut automatically to a more suitable handicap.....how many competitions have you played in in the last 12 calendar months HNJ and have you gone up or down?

 

[Herbie]

Viscount you are right, but if you read my post earlier I mentioned a more aggressive approach to docking h/c and I also said it should be at LEAST half of the difference, this suggests that both the existing method is inadequate and not in all cases strictly adhered to.

If I had my personal way with it, a 24 h/c player comming in 10 under h/c in a comp would be docked about 7 shots not four. The reason I indicated 5 was not to inflame people in either camp.

I have seen some amazing scores at different clubs I have been a member but never seen an equally amazing adjustment afterwards.

 

[shagster]

hnj, i can see your point, but, he would be cut 4 strokes, may be 5 depends on sss. there may be circumstances that could account for this. may has not played a comp for a while, yet has practised a lot. may have been c/f, may have a new putter. unless you know he is a deliberate bandit, perhaps he needs congratulating. i went from 16 to 9 in just over 16 months, yet, if i do not play for a couple of weeks, the clubs feel alien to me. if a high handicapper keeps winning, then the system is not working.

 

[RGDave]

I'm enjoying all this to read.

I have a comment to make.

At my club (and you can all see where that is, so I need to take care) and plenty others, there are not at lot of adjustments made because few comps are off the full "white" course.

To my mind, all cards returned under any "competitive" situations should be eligible for adjustments up and down.

At my old club, it was IMPOSSIBLE not to get adjusted after a game if you were either side of the buffer. There was a CSS set for every single days play. So, if Saturday was a medal and Sunday was a roll-up, then Sunday players WOULD get moved. I work Saturdays and had to play Sundays, but I got down from 24 to 8 over 3 years (or whatever).

At my new club, Sunday roll-ups seem to be "disregarded" as non-qualifying......

If a "bandit" at mine knocks it round 6 under off yellows and we know that the yellow scratch is 2 less than the white scratch, then I'd cut him......the beauty of a computerised system is that this COULD be done without any effort at all.

I've known players to consistently remain unchanged for months on end...despite taking the "pot" week in, week out???

If there's a USEABLE scratch score......use that to get h'caps more accurate.

 

[fastmover2]

I am not a lover of our current handicap system. According to my handicapping book the handicap should reflect the best level of play for an individual and it fails to do this.

Many of the failures are outlined above but at the risk of being repetitive here goes.

1. Handicap adjustments are not aggressive enough when a player comes in well under CSS. A player coming in with 6 under/42 points should be cut by much more than is currently the case. For a Cat 1 player to be cut only 0.6 for this is a nonsense and even worse the Cat 4 player only being cut by 2.

2. In my experience the General play rule is rarely if ever applied to correct for the deficiencies in (1) above. Additionally if you are working on lowering your handicap and submit ad hoc cards for handicap purposes these are often ignored with vague excuses. I submitted 4 such cards at one stage all between -3 an -6 and was told no adjustment would be made as they were not in a comp. I was trying to be honest here and get a handicap that reflected my ability so that I would not have an unwarranted advantage in competions.

3. IMHO the American system is much better and does reflect the best level of an individuals play. In any event I have never played with an American who has played to his h'cap yet! Their system of "all cards" count gives a much better indication of a players ability and by discounting the worse scores prevents unwarranted adjustments being made for an off day or round played in adverse conditions causing a higher than ususal score.

4. The SSS/CSS system is flawed and overly complex. What is the need for it anyway? We play against Par. I have lost count of the competitions I have seen where only one or two players are better than (nett) par yet the CSS goes down and people are cut at level nett/36 points. Surely it would be easier to take the average nett score for all competitors and those below get cut and those above(allowing a buffer) go up. This would again take into account adverse weather conditions.Maybe that is just too simple.

5.The "Qualifying" competions ruling leads to vast differences between clubs wrt to handicaps held. One of our neighbouring clubs has almost no qualifiers in the winter or reductions only. We play almost all qualifiers thruout on an exposed coastal course. Result a lot of our better players will not play competion golf in the winter as if their handicaps increase (due to weather conditions the low guys are more affected as they have less shots/buffer to play with) they will be ballotted out/unable to compete in the better quality comps in the summer. Making a comp "non-qualifying" after the close of play would not be needed using the average nett method I outline above.

6. The change to full allowance in singles matchplay has given an undue advantage to the long handicap players.

Overall I do not like handicapping in principle as I always feel that in any sport the best/most skilled deserve to win though having said this I accept that by the nature of the game we are forced to have handicapping in golf.

 

[SammmeBee]

I'm enjoying all this to read.

I have a comment to make.

At my club (and you can all see where that is, so I need to take care) and plenty others, there are not at lot of adjustments made because few comps are off the full "white" course.

To my mind, all cards returned under any "competitive" situations should be eligible for adjustments up and down.

At my old club, it was IMPOSSIBLE not to get adjusted after a game if you were either side of the buffer. There was a CSS set for every single days play. So, if Saturday was a medal and Sunday was a roll-up, then Sunday players WOULD get moved. I work Saturdays and had to play Sundays, but I got down from 24 to 8 over 3 years (or whatever).

At my new club, Sunday roll-ups seem to be "disregarded" as non-qualifying......

If a "bandit" at mine knocks it round 6 under off yellows and we know that the yellow scratch is 2 less than the white scratch, then I'd cut him......the beauty of a computerised system is that this COULD be done without any effort at all.

I've known players to consistently remain unchanged for months on end...despite taking the "pot" week in, week out???

If there's a USEABLE scratch score......use that to get h'caps more accurate.

It seems both clubs may be failing the current system....all clubs are required by CONGU to allow members the opportunity to play in an 'appropriate' number of competitions - the unwritten suggested number is more than 25 in a year.....even if they are not played of off the whites, the competition can still be a qualifying one if played off of the yellows, with the appropriate SSS and CSS calculation applied....

With regards to your old club - for the 'roll up' to be declared a competition then it must meet the requirements of a competition, eg measured course and that golfers know it's a competition for handicap purposes - as long as they did that then it's fine....

Why is your current club so 'against' providing qualifying competitions?

 

[SammmeBee]

Some interesting points fastmover - what is you handicap by the way as it helps see where you are looking from...

You are correct in that your handicap should be a reflection of what is you best normal level of ability but everyone will have their day of glory at some point in their golfing career.....so people shooting nett 64's should not be chastised for a one-off (it's when it's a regular occurence!!)

There is no General play rule except in in extreme circumstances but the annual review (if the golfer has played in enough events (7+)) should account for any 'bandit effect'....my belief is though that GP should only be applied from competition rounds as 'ad hoc' rounds sometimes do not always comply with the rules of golf (ie asking what you mate is hitting on a par 3)...

I too have never played with a american who has ever got anywhere near their handicap, but don't know enough about it to comment...

We actually play against the course not par - par is an arbitary figure attached to various holes based on length...
The problem with SSS and Par is the level of difficulty - take Royal St George's (Par 70) and St Andrews Old (Par 72) - both Open Championship Courses, both links courses but RSG is by far and away harder than the Old, hence why the SSS at RSG is 75 and it always goes up in competitions, the Old is 73....so in effect a 73 at RSG is a much better score than a 73 round the Old....

The CSS is calculated by the percentage of the field in their buffer zone - the size of the field is a major factor, as is the make of the handicaps in the field...the CSS of the English Amateur invariably always goes up as the field is all Cat 1 but the division 2 stableford where the field is mostly 18+ allows for much more variance from the SSS and therefore is unlikely to increase.....the CSS allows for the difficulty of the course on the day, in relation to those that played on the day....where would you put NR's in the average calculation anyway?

You cannot make a competition 'non qualifying' after the event it either is non qualifying before you start (ie not playing from the measured course) or it becomes no qualifying (or reduction only) through the CCS and the scores on the day.....

I was against full allowance initially but it does work as long as the round is played from the back tees (or proper course) - what I object to is having to give more than 2 shot on a hole - 18 should be the maximum anyone should get in match play....


Handicapping is what makes golf great and unique and it means that I can play with Tiger Woods or Mr Chopper from Chopsville and have a meaningful game based on our handicaps....if people want to cheat the system then sobeit but that is going against completely what golf is about and they should be named, shamed and dealt with.....

 

[Cernunnos]

I was once a member of a course where members were allowed to play off the white competition tees, giving a measured course & yet they didn't allow cards other than those in competiton to count towards adjustments. And yet your first 3 cards in none competiton, but also off the whites do count.

I consider this very odd. Especially as the seniors over the winter used to play off the yellows for their midweek matches, which were allowed to count to their handicap adjustments.

Which seems to fly in the face of the measured course argument. Which is a fair argument & stipulation for handicap & handicap adjustment.

 

[RGDave]

1. Handicap adjustments are not aggressive enough when a player comes in well under CSS. A player coming in with 6 under/42 points should be cut by much more than is currently the case. For a Cat 1 player to be cut only 0.6 for this is a nonsense and even worse the Cat 4 player only being cut by 2.

I agree.....

 

[RGDave]

It seems both clubs may be failing the current system....all clubs are required by CONGU to allow members the opportunity to play in an 'appropriate' number of competitions - the unwritten suggested number is more than 25 in a year.....even if they are not played of off the whites, the competition can still be a qualifying one if played off of the yellows, with the appropriate SSS and CSS calculation applied....

With regards to your old club - for the 'roll up' to be declared a competition then it must meet the requirements of a competition, eg measured course and that golfers know it's a competition for handicap purposes - as long as they did that then it's fine....

Why is your current club so 'against' providing qualifying competitions?

At mine the "comps" are Saturday.....end of story.....at my previous club, they were both days.

The yellow course at mine is both measured and has a CSS. All the Sunday players play "as if it's a proper comp", so I don't see where the problem is.....

We have (effectively) a minimum of 50 (?) Saturday qualie's a year. If you avoid these, you don't go up or down ....Madness....I wanted to go up, but now I've given up on this hope....I'll just have to get better.....

 

[USER1999]

I can't see how you can ever get cut off yellow tees, or tbh, whites, if they are not the longest tees. Your h/cap should be off the blocks, in a comp, with all the stress involved. Knocking it round in level par off the yellows is irrelevant.
A short hitter could be off 5 off the yellows, and 15 off the blocks, as they don't have the length to hit gir.

 

[EchtLoon]

I can't see how you can ever get cut off yellow tees, or tbh, whites, if they are not the longest tees. Your h/cap should be off the blocks, in a comp, with all the stress involved. Knocking it round in level par off the yellows is irrelevant.
A short hitter could be off 5 off the yellows, and 15 off the blocks, as they don't have the length to hit gir.

medal tees are the whites at nearly every club, in fact every club I've ever played at, and very few have had championship tees, which I'm assuming is what you call 'blocks'?

 

[Leftie]

During the winter months, one of our courses is played off the yellows only (I assume to protect the tee boxes!)

Comps are still played on this course, medal and stableford, and are usually qualifying for h/cap adjustments.

I assume that because the course is "easier" off the yellows, this is taken into account by the SSS and, on the day, by the CSS.

 

[viscount17]

the only non-comp cards allowed for handicap purposes at my club are those that are logged in the book beforehand, using a marked card and witnessed. this makes it difficult, if not impossible for General play cards to be included.

as an aside. after playing in minty's charity game, I got into a discussion about handicaps with five or six others. one guy was adamant that handicaps were calculated from the average of the three cards as that is what his golf book told him. he was most hurt when he asked 'so you're saying the book is wrong' and I said yes, despite my being backed up by most of the others. distressingly only one other seemed to think that playing regularly to handicap wasn't the idea. there's a lot of ignorance out there, that or as many bandit clubs as there are bandits.

 

[fastmover2]

Some interesting points fastmover - what is you handicap by the way as it helps see where you are looking from...

H'cap 7.4 much to my great disgust it has gone up due to playing in comps in bad weather hence some of my other comments!

You are correct in that your handicap should be a reflection of what is you best normal level of ability but everyone will have their day of glory at some point in their golfing career.....so people shooting nett 64's should not be chastised for a one-off (it's when it's a regular occurence!!)

I would not begrudge anyone their day of glory but they should still be cut more than they are IMHO

There is no General play rule except in in extreme circumstances but the annual review (if the golfer has played in enough events (7+)) should account for any 'bandit effect'....my belief is though that GP should only be applied from competition rounds as 'ad hoc' rounds sometimes do not always comply with the rules of golf (ie asking what you mate is hitting on a par 3)...

Not sure what you mean by No General Play rule really as it is mentioned on the CONGU handicapping web site. Playing a minimum number of qualifiers is not possible for some ( me included) due to work etc. What I would like to see is that if you do not play in the required number of qualifiers in a given time period, I would like to see 3 in six months, then your cap would be cut by 0.5. Then when you do next play in a qualifier this correction to be added back in upon return of a score.

We actually play against the course not par - par is an arbitary figure attached to various holes based on length...
The problem with SSS and Par is the level of difficulty - take Royal St George's (Par 70) and St Andrews Old (Par 72) - both Open Championship Courses, both links courses but RSG is by far and away harder than the Old, hence why the SSS at RSG is 75 and it always goes up in competitions, the Old is 73....so in effect a 73 at RSG is a much better score than a 73 round the Old....

I quite agree with yr comment about Old/RSG but I do feel that more should be done to take in to account bad weather conditions which affect low cappers more.

The CSS is calculated by the percentage of the field in their buffer zone - the size of the field is a major factor, as is the make of the handicaps in the field...the CSS of the English Amateur invariably always goes up as the field is all Cat 1 but the division 2 stableford where the field is mostly 18+ allows for much more variance from the SSS and therefore is unlikely to increase.....the CSS allows for the difficulty of the course on the day, in relation to those that played on the day....where would you put NR's in the average calculation anyway?

CSS is just too complicated as far as I see it. Yr comment about the English Amateur seems valid to me, all these guys have "genuine" handicaps so the CSS works fine. What I object to is the way the weighting works wrt Div 2 where caps are/can be somewhat less um..accurate having an untoward effect on the CSS with consequent ramifications for Cat.1. I have never seen the CSS go above SSS at my club. Another point here, and I will post about this elsewhere,is that Rules compliance is questionable at times, not deliberate I hasten to add. If all competitors are not playing "strict rules" then any handicapping is irrelevant and I would contend that there is more rules "flexibility" in Cat2 than Cat1. As an example my son and I walked in from one comp due to seeing continual rules infringements ( winter rules lift clean place mainly), as we walked back to the clubhouse we counted 15 rules infringements in various groups in six holes! I am not really fired up to play in a comp. where many people, albeit unwittingly, have better scores due to not playing "strict rules".

You cannot make a competition 'non qualifying' after the event it either is non qualifying before you start (ie not playing from the measured course) or it becomes no qualifying (or reduction only) through the CCS and the scores on the day.....

Sorry should have said no qualifying!

I was against full allowance initially but it does work as long as the round is played from the back tees (or proper course) - what I object to is having to give more than 2 shot on a hole - 18 should be the maximum anyone should get in match play....

That is a very interesting point about back tees and is proven out by the performance of my regular (social) matchplay opponent. Difficult to beat off the yellows on full diff so in future I think we will have to make some allowances lol. Totally 100% agree with you on the 2 shots a hole thing.

Handicapping is what makes golf great and unique and it means that I can play with Tiger Woods or Mr Chopper from Chopsville and have a meaningful game based on our handicaps....if people want to cheat the system then sobeit but that is going against completely what golf is about and they should be named, shamed and dealt with.....

Let's start the naming and shaming soon then!