Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
So they invent a system just to complicate things further.......
CSS... doesnt make sense!
- Thread starter G1BB0
- Start date
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
Indeed. I'm luke warm about it but understand the idea that your handicap should reflect how you play in normal conditions so a bit of extra leeway when it's really rough is no bad thing. However, I just feel that we should all be able to make the most of the good days. I like cake, and when I have it I want to eat it. 
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
As I've always said, Mashie, I'm more than capable of playing like an unmentionable on a gorgeous day with no wind, running fairways and receptive greens - much like I can play out of my skin on a cold, soggy, windy day......
I am a Handicap Golfer...
I am a Handicap Golfer...
HawkeyeMS
Ryder Cup Winner
Is exactly right, if you're gonna play well, you will, if you're gonna play badly, you will.
Moquillo19
Assistant Pro
Couldn't agree more. We had our Spring Open yesterday. Course was great. Weather fantastic. Most of the field had a shocker.Myself included.
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
Ah that's the difference. My game is like papier mache. It just falls apart when it's wet.
What if the course is playing considerably easier on a given day than usual?
You're still the same player - you haven't scored better because you've improved, you've scored better because the course was playing easier. Handicap system has to try and factor that in especially when you're looking for parity on across sorts of different courses...
G1BB0
Money List Winner
surely a course only plays aswell as the player! especially as handicap golfers. If anything iy played tougher yesterday as greens were bone hard so everything ran through. I personally think its a crap system 
HawkeyeMS
Ryder Cup Winner
I makes no difference to the average golfer who is inconsistent by their very nature. If you aren't playing well it doesn't matter whether you' playing off the red tees, you're still going to hit bad shots and have high scores.
Also, If CSS was supposed to stop you getting cut too much if conditions are "easy" it would go down more than 1.
All courses have SSS, why not use it? Why does it matter if lots of people go up or down? It's the same for everyone.
We're not talking about individual golfers here who are obviously very inconsistent - we're talking about the field on any given day cumulatively, which will give an indication of how easy or difficult the course is playing overall.
I don't think CSS is supposed to 'stop you getting cut too much', it's just that's how people read it when they feel 'cheated' when it goes down (usually forgetting all those times it went up and they got a bigger cut than they were expecting)
To ignore fluctuations in how easy or difficult a course is playing would undermine the whole system overall when you consider it's not just about your course, but any course you might play against your handicap.
HawkeyeMS
Ryder Cup Winner
But does it really matter? I played well on Saturday, I din't think the course was playing that difficult, it was quite windy and we had one heavy rain shower that lasted 15 minutes maybe. When I got to the clubhouse everyone was saying what a great score I shot in those conditions and it looks like CSS might go up. Personally, I thought my 76 was 3 too many and I that was nothing to do with the course or conditions, it was due to me hitting poor shots. If the course was that difficult, how come I shot my best round in nearly 18 months?
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Surely a field can be as inconsistent as an individual player...?
What determines how "easy" or "tricky" a course playes on any given day?
The scores that are returned.
If 1 player can be inconsistent and return a shocker then so can the whole field - regardless of playing conditions.
I think, on the whole, people are too precious about their handicaps.
We all hate going up 0.1 - but if we've played below average that's all that happens.
If we play well we get cut.
Bringing in an extra layer complicates things.
Just say that MIke cuts himself to 9 for a Matchplay as CSS for the comp yesterday won't be calculated until Tuesday...
He's playing a 10 handicapper so now has to give a shot.
All holes are halved except the one Mike gives a shot on, which he loses....
CSS is calculated 2 days later and as it happens MIke doesn't come down to 9 after all - too late for the Matchplay though....
If SSS is used then you know instantly if you've made buffer or not - sometimes we have had to wait almost a week for our Comps to be finalised - if I was playing another Comp I wouldn't know if I'm playing off the right number or not.
Our handicaps are calculated originally from the SSS - it's then not used again except as a starting point to move the actual handicappiing number from......that seems ludicrous to me...
What determines how "easy" or "tricky" a course playes on any given day?
The scores that are returned.
If 1 player can be inconsistent and return a shocker then so can the whole field - regardless of playing conditions.
I think, on the whole, people are too precious about their handicaps.
We all hate going up 0.1 - but if we've played below average that's all that happens.
If we play well we get cut.
Bringing in an extra layer complicates things.
Just say that MIke cuts himself to 9 for a Matchplay as CSS for the comp yesterday won't be calculated until Tuesday...
He's playing a 10 handicapper so now has to give a shot.
All holes are halved except the one Mike gives a shot on, which he loses....
CSS is calculated 2 days later and as it happens MIke doesn't come down to 9 after all - too late for the Matchplay though....
If SSS is used then you know instantly if you've made buffer or not - sometimes we have had to wait almost a week for our Comps to be finalised - if I was playing another Comp I wouldn't know if I'm playing off the right number or not.
Our handicaps are calculated originally from the SSS - it's then not used again except as a starting point to move the actual handicappiing number from......that seems ludicrous to me...
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
One thing to bear in mind is that our handicaps have to be comparable to every other player at every other club not just out own clubs.
I guess one thing that CSS can do is take account of variations at courses (e.g. links) where the weather conditions can have a big influence on how hard the course is playing on a particular day, which is something that SSS calculation doesn't in itself take into account.
I'd be interested to hear from some links members on how often CSS goes up when it's windy or squally and in so doing gives a fairer benchmark for how well they have played in the conditions on the day.
I guess one thing that CSS can do is take account of variations at courses (e.g. links) where the weather conditions can have a big influence on how hard the course is playing on a particular day, which is something that SSS calculation doesn't in itself take into account.
I'd be interested to hear from some links members on how often CSS goes up when it's windy or squally and in so doing gives a fairer benchmark for how well they have played in the conditions on the day.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Statistically, it doesn't work that way - and there are different procedures for 'small fields' where that's more likely to happen.
That's a problem for the Competition Committee - to get the comp finalised asap. There is no excuse for taking longer than 36 hours to do so!
SSS (+ buffer) is used as an initial reference point, not to 'originally calculate handicap'. Subtle but important difference.
And as stated a couple of times, Congu handicap attempts to equate the likes of Scottish Links players, with cold, windy, rainy conditions with those in the 'balmy' South with warm weather and fast running fairways - and every combination between the 2!
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Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Still, 36 hours is too long if you played a Comp on the Saturday and were playing the matchplay on the Sunday......
Use SSS and this couldn't happen....
HawkeyeMS
Ryder Cup Winner
I still don't see why my h'cap should be affected by how others play. As I said above, if I hit poor shots, I score poorly, if I hit good shots, I score well. What others do is irrelevant to how I play.
pbrown7582
Money List Winner
Is use SSS exactly what you are supposed to do yourself for any cut until comp is closed off and CSS calculated?
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
As far as I'm aware it is, yeah....
If you missed buffer, you don't adjust until the CSS is done
If you beat SSS you cut yourself accordingly until CSS is done and then play to whatever the computer says....
Foxholer
Blackballed
Yes. but it may mean there are inaccuracis.
While i mentioned 36 hours as an outer limit, 1-3 hours after finishing is much more what should happen.
I find it ridiculous that another comp, albeit it a 'Social' one, can start before a qualifying one has been finalised! Very bad planning if it's because the only guy that can finalise it is elsewhere for the Bank Holiday!
As the handicap is a measure of your ability compared to other players, I'd suggest that it is essential that it's affected by how others play.
Playing on your own.'barefoot', you don't need to take handicap into account - just how many you score. But as soon as you start using it (as it's meant to be used) to give or receive shots, then you are absolutely comparing it with other players, so their (previous) play will affect you.
And without the CSS adjustment, I'm absolutely certain that many more folk would withdraw if the weather looks adverse!
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HawkeyeMS
Ryder Cup Winner
Ok, Probably should have phrased that a bit better. What I meant was, at my course, where SSS = par, if I shoot 5 under my h'cap I should get cut 1 shot. Why should I get cut more if loads of others miss the buffer or less if loads shoot better than buffer.
Why can't I just be cut 1 shot and everyone else cut or increased accordingly against SSS. Why do we need the extra variable? It really really doesn't make sense to me.
