Creating a ramp with a Spurk golf mat.

[Swango1980]

Unfortunately this has developed into an opinions thread rather than an actual rules thread

 

[IanM]

Blimey. Lots of stress about nothing.

Winter Golf: get round ASAP, keep the muscles loose, get some fresh air and exercise, see your mates.

I'm not calling someone for not fully squidging down his mat to stop the ball rolling off. Messing around to find a flat spot just slows down play.

Don't worry, I disqualified myself for agreeing to waive a Rule!

 

[RichA]

Blimey. Lots of stress about nothing.

Winter Golf: get round ASAP, keep the muscles loose, get some fresh air and exercise, see your mates.

I'm not calling someone for not fully squidging down his mat to stop the ball rolling off. Messing around to find a flat spot just slows down play.

Don't worry, I disqualified myself for agreeing to waive a Rule!

Similarly, we never use mats so I don’t really care. It’s just something to talk about on a golf forum. But contrary to what somebody suggested earlier, mats aren’t required in order to improve your lie. They are required purely to protect the course. Whether a player chooses to use it to improve their lie is on them, not the rules.

 

[jim8flog]

I've been thinking about the possibility of a ball rolling up to and resting against a tree root. Preferred lies allows you to replace a few inches behind the tree root.
But the placing of a Spurk fairway mat behind the tree root elevates the ball considerably making the tree root less of an obstacle to get over.
Of course anyone who finds themself in this position will be able to do the same, so no one person is gaining an advantage over another.
The same goes for tilting the mat slightly. Everyone can do it so no one person gains an advantage over another.
Sidehill lie ball above the feet - press mat down well. Sidehill lie ball below feet - rest mat gently on the ground. Advantage being gained. But is it "unfairly" when everyone can do it.

The only issue, for me, is qualifying scores being allowed with these advantages.
The issue of "lie" of ball need not be considered, because the clear and obvious alignment aid should negate qualifying scores. (end of...)

Jet plane on a conveyor was far more interesting.

If a course has problems with tree roots on the fairway (or first cut) they should have in place.

Model Local Rule F-9
"If a player’s ball lies in the general area and there is interference from exposed tree roots that are [specify area of the course, such as in a part of the general area cut to fairway height or less or in the rough within a certain number of club-lengths from the edge of the area cut to fairway height or less], the tree roots are treated as ground under repair. The player may take free relief under Rule 16.1b.[But relief is not allowed if the tree roots only interfere with the player’s stance.]

 

[Neilds]

No new posts in the last 3 hours - does this mean this nonsense is now over?

 

[doublebogey7]

As a referee, I acknowledge that the position not 100% clear, however I am not sure how the authorities could make it so without severly impacting the pace of play or restricting the type of mat that could be used. I am sure no one wishes to see the introduction of a list of comforming matts. We should remember that the provision was introduced to allow clubs to introduce mats fairly and nobody is ever likely to have their career effected by the little doubt that exists.
As far as MLR E12 is concerned I don't see it saying that matts must be placed parallel to the ground and so I see no problem with players not doing so, unless they are doing it in order that the ball rolls off the mat, so that they can move the position of the mat to a position that would give them an advantage.
The Rules of Golf would have to be exbanded significantly if they were to be very clear to the pedantic amongst us.

 

[rulie]

Thanks for the clarification - appreciated - as I stated right up top I'm a rules newb so was hoping that by posting someone would challenge and I'd learn something.

Of course none of rule 14 applies if the ball doesn't roll off your correctly placed as intended to be used (so as near horizontal as possible) Spurk mat, so 14 then becomes moot.

If the end argument of someone well versed in the rules, who explicitly wishes to restrict mat use, can only find the arguments that mats shouldn't be allowed in comps in (well they are - and such usage is specifically permiited within E-12) and that using them to improve lie isn't in the spirit of the game (which I deal with underneath and is actually is just a concession that "I don't like it but it's just my viewpoint; there's no prohibition in the rules") then I think we've reached our endpoint.

1. Mats purpose is specifically stated within the rule E-12 as requiring the player "MUST take free relief". Relief in golf means improving the position or lie of the ball, so there is explicitly an expectation that you can and will improve the lie (note improving the position, in contrast, is specifically disallowed by E-12). Doing what a rule actually not just allows but REQUIRES you to do (improve your lie by placing a ball on a mat) cannot be against the spirit of the game.​

2. It is allowed to use anchors for the mat (as a tee is given as one example of a method of anchoring, confirming this). There is no requirement that these anchors must be 100% embedded within the ground and the rule itself acknowledges they needn't be by referencing you might be tempted to hit from that tee example - don't! Mats of the Spurk type are intended to be used horizontal so that the ball can sit on them ready to be hit. This is self-evident - it's the only way they can ever be used! Using them horizontal with a bit of anchor exposed is therefore allowed under E4.3 - you're using them as close as possible to how they are intended.​

3. Of course on severe slopes not even this will keep the ball sat on the mat (of any type), and yes the rules cover what to do in this eventuality.​

4. Any argument that using a mat to improve lie is not allowed under the rules then falls away as fatally flawed. Any argument that a rigid mat shouldn't be as close as possible to horizontal or that all the mat anchors must be fully within the ground also falls away as fatally flawed.​

5. Therefore using a mat horizontal is allowed even when the ground is not entirely horizontal at every last point the mat sits on.​

Phew. I hope we're done; although I doubt it

I'm not sure who you are barking at wrt improving the lie and "horizontal" mats, that's not been part of my discourse. Of course the lie is likely to be improved by using a mat, and a "horizontal" mat might be the outcome of moving a mat to where the ball will stay at rest on the mat, but neither the design of the mat nor MLR E-12 dictate that a 'horizontal" position is required or guaranteed - the only requirement is that the mat is placed at the nearest point where the ball will stay at rest on the mat. And Rule 4.3a is always a consideration - players must not use equipment in an abnormal way to create a potential advantage for themselves. It is part of "the spirit of the game". Breaching 4.3a is often called "ch**ting" and is how/why this thread/discussion started.
Yes, I'm done.

 

[clubchamp98]

I'm not sure who you are barking at wrt improving the lie and "horizontal" mats, that's not been part of my discourse. Of course the lie is likely to be improved by using a mat, and a "horizontal" mat might be the outcome of moving a mat to where the ball will stay at rest on the mat, but neither the design of the mat nor MLR E-12 dictate that a 'horizontal" position is required or guaranteed - the only requirement is that the mat is placed at the nearest point where the ball will stay at rest on the mat. And Rule 4.3a is always a consideration - players must not use equipment in an abnormal way to create a potential advantage for themselves. It is part of "the spirit of the game". Breaching 4.3a is often called ch**ting" and is how/why this thread/discussion started.
Yes, I'm done.

Thank you for your input.
For me this is the answer.

That’s all folks!

 

[Swango1980]

I'm not sure who you are barking at wrt improving the lie and "horizontal" mats, that's not been part of my discourse. Of course the lie is likely to be improved by using a mat, and a "horizontal" mat might be the outcome of moving a mat to where the ball will stay at rest on the mat, but neither the design of the mat nor MLR E-12 dictate that a 'horizontal" position is required or guaranteed - the only requirement is that the mat is placed at the nearest point where the ball will stay at rest on the mat. And Rule 4.3a is always a consideration - players must not use equipment in an abnormal way to create a potential advantage for themselves. It is part of "the spirit of the game". Breaching 4.3a is often called "ch**ting" and is how/why this thread/discussion started.
Yes, I'm done.

Is that a lot of words to say:

yes, you can place the mat on the spot horizontally to stop, the ball rolling off?

 

[rulie]

Is that a lot of words to say:

yes, you can place the mat on the spot horizontally to stop, the ball rolling off?

No. "Horizontal" is not necessary, the ball just needs to stay on the mat.

 

[Backache]

Would I be accurate in summarising the answers from the two golf referees responding as :
One thinks there potentially is a problem
One thinks there probably isn't
Nobody seems to think that in the overall hassles of winter play with mats it's anything to risk losing sleep or causing a fuss over?

 

[Neilds]

Asking for a friend - if I, sorry they, don’t push a castle tee right into the ground so the shoulder isn’t in contact with the ground, is this a penalty as the equipment is not being used as designed?

 

[doublebogey7]

Just I quick add to my earlier post. I am satisfied that had the R&A wished to penalise a player for not placing the mat at parallel to the ground beneath it they would of said so in MLR E -12. Ditto to using the mat to aid direction of play.

 

[nickjdavis]

All that makes sense. But there is nothing to say the mat must be level with the slope of the land. And that is the point being debated.

I have only used the rigid Spurk may. Any hint of a slope, the ball rolls off it.

does the Spurk mat take a tee ?

problem solved or have i just opened a new can of wriggly invertebrates ?

 

[upsidedown]

does the Spurk mat take a tee ?

problem solved or have i just opened a new can of wriggly invertebrates ?

Yes and yes
I always put my ball in the little hole where a tee goes ,fine on slopes up to around 15 to 20 degrees