Couple of questions for those who use CONGU at their club

[jammag]

At my club I feel the scoring system is incorrect but would like some clarification on official guidelines.

First issue is that our competitions are run over a weekend so always a Saturday and Sunday. How ever the CSS is judged over the 2 days of scoring and rounds. Obviously the tee blocks and flags stay in the same positions for these 2 days how ever due to the weather and other factors is it right there should be one CSS for the 2 days or should there be 2 seperate CSS done one for Saturday and one for Sunday and handicaps judged by that.

My thinking is you could have perfect scoring conditions one day and then horrible high winds the next yet the competition and CSS is all based on both days.

The second issue I have is everyone signs up to a competition via the sheet and pays their money, so this would see as official entry to the competition. I have noticed over the time that if you do not hand your card in your name does not appear on the scores and also no +.1 added to your handicap so if you was trying to keep it lower than it should be you can do by only putting in your good scores. Surely again this cannot be correct?

 

[Foxholer]

Not 100% sure about whether 2 CSSs should be calc-ed. Same blocks and pins would probably mean that a single one is ok. Weather can and does change significantly throughout a day too - specially on seaside courses! Alternate day compe, not quite the same thing, have separate CSSs though.

NRs should result in +0.1. Are you sure that the names that didn't appear actually played in the comp. It may be that they just entered but didn't compete. So all that happens is that they sacrifice their entry. Not great etiquette if the entries are such tht a comp has to extend over 2 days! I'd suggest a fine would be appropriate too.

 

[Imurg]

They did single CSS thing at my last club and I always thought it was wrong.
Rosie or Duncan will know for sure....

 

[Colin L]

I'm pretty sure you should have two separate CSS but I'm not sufficiently conversant with this area to be definitive. Wait, as Imurg says for Rosecott or Duncan.

 

[DCB]

The two days should each have their own CSS calculated based on the scores for that particular day. Do the club leave the PC running on a single competition set up for the two days or is there a competition set up for each single day ?

Af for the return of cards, someone isn't matching the sign in sheet against participants. What if it was the other way round and someone won with out entering ? Any non returned card should be identified and dealt with accordingly.

 

[AmandaJR]

According to the CONGU manual:

Alternate Day Competition
An Alternate Day Competition is a Qualifying Competition that allows players unable to play on the main competition date e.g. due to work commitments to participate in the same competition,on an alternative date. A separate Competition Scratch Score is calculated for each day of an Alternate Day Competition.

I assume your competitons are defined as Alternate Day but Rosie or Duncan will have the definitive answers (I'm a newbie)!

 

[rosecott]

The unequivocal CONGU rule is that a separate CSS must be calculated when one round of a qualifying competition is played over more than one day. The club's handicapping sotware should allow the scores from the 2 days to be combined for prize allocations but CSS has to be calculated separately. I suppose the club could fiddle it by assigning the date of the second round to cards from both days.
On the second point:
If a player has entered his name into a qualifier, he/she is duty bound to submit the card from the competition. If he/she fails to submit a card, it will be recorded as "No return, no score recorded" with a 0.1 increase unless CSS is +3 (RO). Again the club could get round it by just pretending that the player had never entered but that is against the intent and spirit of the handicapping system.

 

[Ethan]

Although if you enter and pay in advance, but do not actually take a card out, i.e. do not turn up on the day, then that is not a NR and no 0.1 should be added.

 

[duncan mackie]

Again the club could get round it by just pretending that the player had never entered but that is against the intent and spirit of the handicapping system.

not only against intent and spirit - it messes up the CSS calculation (although here that's the least of their worries!)

the real risk is that CONGU pull the plug on the club and tell them that none of their handicaps are valid

I do have sympathy with (most) clubs as when you dig into these things it's frequently just a matter of confusion over how to set things up properly ie the intent is good but the competence (with computer systems etc) isn't there.

The treatement of NRs is however more likely to be a general sloppyness - get cards, enter scores; job done. But it might well be as Ethan has pointed out as well.

 

[TXL]

Although if you enter and pay in advance, but do not actually take a card out, i.e. do not turn up on the day, then that is not a NR and no 0.1 should be added.

We call these players "No shows", only slight difference is that we do not pay in advance. "No shows" are not included in the results, in fact they are treated as never having entered for the sake of results, so no .1 back. However, unless they have a good reason for not showing, they will be banned from competing in the next drawn comp.

If the club in the OP spread the comp over 2 days, are players allowed to compete on both days? Also, having been involved with closing comps using Club 2000 s/w, the only way I can think of getting one CSS is to "edit" the competition date to fool the s/w into thinking it was played on a single day. (Doing this would also pervent the same player playing twice!)

 

[jammag]

Thanks for your replies so far its interesting to read. This is my first year at this particular club so was not sure whether to question it or not.

To answer a couple of the questions, when entering a competition you decide on the day if you want to join in. You have your tee time booked in advance but can play a general round or enter in the official competition for that weekend or even decide to play the monthly bogey competition. You pay you money and sign up on the sheet before you head to the first tee for your time slot. This is why I cannot understand how n/r is not punished as you have signed up on the day to say you are there and playing. I know this is not punished due to a couple of reasons.

A while back I received some bad news and had to head home after 14 holes, I explained the reasons to my playing partners and said I would just have to take the .1 on my handicap. Come round to the results to see my handicap increase and I was not on the sheet and no increase in my handicap. The other reason I know this happens is because sometimes we play with my friends dads group if theres only 2 of them. One guy plays off about a 22 handicap and only puts his card in if its a good score, when we queried with my friends dad why he plays off a 22 handicap because he wasnt that good he said well he would be off about 25 if he actually handed all his cards in. I think they encourage him to but when its handed to him to either sign or check he says nah not handing that one in(i think to save embarressment at times of a low score) then he chucks it in the bin or rips it up.

Its interesting a few of you have said about changing the dates to make the computer think it was all on one day, now this would make sense as when I receive the results it only says one date on the results sheet. Would this show up as 2 dates if it was put in over 2 days of actual play?

 

[TXL]

Its interesting a few of you have said about changing the dates to make the computer think it was all on one day, now this would make sense as when I receive the results it only says one date on the results sheet. Would this show up as 2 dates if it was put in over 2 days of actual play?

If it was put in with 2 dates, then it would need to be set up as 2 comps, either totally seperate or as 2 comps where they are set as multi round, linked, comps (e.g. a 36 hole comp).

Out of curiosity, who enters the scores? Does the committee do it (players just put their cards in a box or similar) or is the player expected to enter their scores after they complete the round and then put the card in a box or similar?

 

[jammag]

All scorecards get put into a locked box, then some guy usually puts the scores on a Monday or Tuedays as thats when we get the results. At my old club you used to have to put your scores on a touch screen before posting your card but apparently the touch screen at my new club kept breaking and causing more problems than it was helping so got rid of it a few years ago.

 

[Ethan]

Thanks for your replies so far its interesting to read. This is my first year at this particular club so was not sure whether to question it or not.

To answer a couple of the questions, when entering a competition you decide on the day if you want to join in. You have your tee time booked in advance but can play a general round or enter in the official competition for that weekend or even decide to play the monthly bogey competition. You pay you money and sign up on the sheet before you head to the first tee for your time slot. This is why I cannot understand how n/r is not punished as you have signed up on the day to say you are there and playing. I know this is not punished due to a couple of reasons.

A while back I received some bad news and had to head home after 14 holes, I explained the reasons to my playing partners and said I would just have to take the .1 on my handicap. Come round to the results to see my handicap increase and I was not on the sheet and no increase in my handicap. The other reason I know this happens is because sometimes we play with my friends dads group if theres only 2 of them. One guy plays off about a 22 handicap and only puts his card in if its a good score, when we queried with my friends dad why he plays off a 22 handicap because he wasnt that good he said well he would be off about 25 if he actually handed all his cards in. I think they encourage him to but when its handed to him to either sign or check he says nah not handing that one in(i think to save embarressment at times of a low score) then he chucks it in the bin or rips it up.

Its interesting a few of you have said about changing the dates to make the computer think it was all on one day, now this would make sense as when I receive the results it only says one date on the results sheet. Would this show up as 2 dates if it was put in over 2 days of actual play?

If people don't pitch up for booked comps, the club can take action, but the handicap system has no part to play in that. You can only get 0.1 back for a round you have at least started.

Any player who hits a shot and fails to return the card gets p0.X back, simple as. No exceptions unless a non-qualifying round due to weather etc in which case nobody gets anything back.

 

[6inchcup]

At my club I feel the scoring system is incorrect but would like some clarification on official guidelines.

First issue is that our competitions are run over a weekend so always a Saturday and Sunday. How ever the CSS is judged over the 2 days of scoring and rounds. Obviously the tee blocks and flags stay in the same positions for these 2 days how ever due to the weather and other factors is it right there should be one CSS for the 2 days or should there be 2 separate CSS done one for Saturday and one for Sunday and handicaps judged by that.

My thinking is you could have perfect scoring conditions one day and then horrible high winds the next yet the competition and CSS is all based on both days.

The second issue I have is everyone signs up to a competition via the sheet and pays their money, so this would see as official entry to the competition. I have noticed over the time that if you do not hand your card in your name does not appear on the scores and also no +.1 added to your handicap so if you was trying to keep it lower than it should be you can do by only putting in your good scores. Surely again this cannot be correct?

i was always under the belief that it didn't matter how many days the competition was over if a single comp the ss and the css stayed the same it is afterall one competition and the changes cant be made halfway through like if you play in a 2 day comp and have a great first round your h/c cant be altered for the second round.

 

[Foxholer]

i was always under the belief that it didn't matter how many days the competition was over if a single comp the ss and the css stayed the same it is afterall one competition and the changes cant be made halfway through like if you play in a 2 day comp and have a great first round your h/c cant be altered for the second round.

It depends on how long between rounds. Same/following day and the second day is played off original handicap. I've played Club Champs that extend over 5 months! Rule (of thumb?) is that if it's not possible to play a qualifying comp between the rounds, then same 'cap for both/all rounds, otherwise 'actual' handicap. CSS for each round. This does not affect the Competition, which is a conducted in parallel with the qualifying rounds.

The essential point is that Qualifying rounds and Competitions are 2 separate concepts.

I also believe that there is some leeway for Committees to 'cancel' a score under exceptional circumstances such as the one mentioned earlier. Or maybe simply score the equivalent of 2 Stableford points from the point of interruption.

 

[rosecott]

It depends on how long between rounds. Same/following day and the second day is played off original handicap. I've played Club Champs that extend over 5 months! Rule (of thumb?) is that if it's not possible to play a qualifying comp between the rounds, then same 'cap for both/all rounds, otherwise 'actual' handicap. CSS for each round. This does not affect the Competition, which is a conducted in parallel with the qualifying rounds.

In the England version of the CONGU handbook, it is only a recommendation that the starting handicap be used in the second round of a 2-day competition with no intervening qualifier. It is up to the committee to lay down in the Conditions of Competition whether or not the starting handicap may be altered between rounds.

 

[duncan mackie]

I also believe that there is some leeway for Committees to 'cancel' a score under exceptional circumstances such as the one mentioned earlier. Or maybe simply score the equivalent of 2 Stableford points from the point of interruption.

yes there is leeway and adding 2 points a hole is a good way to quickly evaluate how well the player was doing up until that point. I used to just take points scored x 18/holes played and compare it to buffer; then tweak based on reason ie if it was close and the player quit for physical reasons they would get the benefit of no 0.1

it was rarely close though

 

[chrisd]

I had a big set to with my club captain a couple of years ago when I retired injured in a comp and .1 was added. I spoke to the EGU and they said that non completion of a round due to injury meant that the card should be left aside. It took ages for him to agree to take off the .1 but he was a pompous so and so and just tried to be difficult. I was level for my handicap at the time but the EGU didn't ask that before giving their answer

 

[Whee]

Interesting discussion this.

I paid entry into our monthly medal this week, and had a competition card on the go. Walking off the 2nd green, I knew my competition was over, played 3rd and 4th dreadfully and that was that. On the 5th tee, I told the lad marking my card to no longer record my scores, and I stopped playing under competition rules - I picked my ball up on the 6th green when it was 2 inches from the hole rather than putt out, I didn't complete the 7th etc.

At the end of the round, I signed the card I was marking for a playing partner, got my card back and tore it up - therefore not submitting a return. CSS for the day was 75 - I don't think I would have made much (if indeed any) difference to that.

I was expecting to get 0.1 back for not submitting my card, but I wasn't even listed on the final standings, thankfully. No 0.1 back at all.