Coronavirus - political views - supporting or otherwise...

[Swinglowandslow]

Where did I say the government are disregarding advice from scientists? They obviously are basing decisions on what they are being told, but there are a number of differing schools of thought amongst the scientific community. There is a world of difference between following scientific advice and there only being one set of agreed correct answers.

We all know that Cummings performs the same bullyboy / enforcer role that Campbell did for Blair, to suggest he is going along merely to pass on "questions, queries and theories" from the Cabinet is laughable. If the Cabinet really wanted a message boy, they would send a junior minister from the Dept of Health.

Do you not read your own posts? Post 227

"".....'.we are following the science' That is nonsense"

 

[SocketRocket]

Where did I say the government are disregarding advice from scientists? They obviously are basing decisions on what they are being told, but there are a number of differing schools of thought amongst the scientific community. There is a world of difference between following scientific advice and there only being one set of agreed correct answers.

We all know that Cummings performs the same bullyboy / enforcer role that Campbell did for Blair, to suggest he is going along merely to pass on "questions, queries and theories" from the Cabinet is laughable. If the Cabinet really wanted a message boy, they would send a junior minister from the Dept of Health.

SAG isnt a cabinet meeting, I believe there are attendees from a number of groups.

 

[Hobbit]

So no one here has ever gone to a meeting being held by another dept that they might have a vested interest in the outcomes? No here has been asked a question when they've sat in on those meetings, or offered a different view? No one on here has said, but the process or policy is? No one on here has been asked by their boss to attend a meeting being held by another dept?

Seriously? And do people think that the scientific advice gets changed because of an opinion from a SPAD? Really?

Methinks there's some people with their head stuck up their own 'political bias.'

 

[rudebhoy]

Do you not read your own posts? Post 227

"".....'.we are following the science' That is nonsense"

for the third time, there is a world of difference between taking scientific advice, and there only being one school of thought or indeed one set of answers within the scientific community.

 

[User62651]

So no one here has ever gone to a meeting being held by another dept that they might have a vested interest in the outcomes? No here has been asked a question when they've sat in on those meetings, or offered a different view? No one on here has said, but the process or policy is? No one on here has been asked by their boss to attend a meeting being held by another dept?

Seriously? And do people think that the scientific advice gets changed because of an opinion from a SPAD? Really?

Methinks there's some people with their head stuck up their own 'political bias.'

Why not be open about it then? Clearly Govt didn't want people to know Cummings was at SAGE. Govt forget they are elected by public. That's what is wrong and why it was a press story. You can defuse any story easily by being up front with people. Johnson acknowledged that error earlier today with the transparency comment and also offered cross party input. That was a good move even if he doesn't mean it.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Where did I say the government are disregarding advice from scientists? They obviously are basing decisions on what they are being told, but there are a number of differing schools of thought amongst the scientific community. There is a world of difference between following scientific advice and there only being one set of agreed correct answers.

We all know that Cummings performs the same bullyboy / enforcer role that Campbell did for Blair, to suggest he is going along merely to pass on "questions, queries and theories" from the Cabinet is laughable. If the Cabinet really wanted a message boy, they would send a junior minister from the Dept of Health.

Actually we don't all know what role Cummings fills

The only thing we have is the spin placed upon him by various media outlets which we then translate to conform to our own political leanings.

No: 10 could deny until eternity that he made any contribution to SAGE meetings and some will never believe it whilst others will believe every word.

Whatever suits the narrative.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Observers, inform Cabinet.
Why not?

I'm not that fussed that Cummings is sitting in on SAGE meetings. I have no concerns about him influencing discussions and decisions of SAGE - I just can't see that happening. But 'to inform cabinet?' I thought that that's what the minutes of SAGE were for. The issue some will have is that Cummings isn't simply 'informing' cabinet - but that he's 'spinning' to the cabinet what he heard in SAGE and what they will read in the minutes.

Bottom line is that I don't really care what they do as long as they get it right - and from where we are today that is the current level of fatalities from Covid-19 being as bad as it gets before it reduces, and us not being subjected to a grim second wave in the Autumn...

 

[SocketRocket]

So no one here has ever gone to a meeting being held by another dept that they might have a vested interest in the outcomes? No here has been asked a question when they've sat in on those meetings, or offered a different view? No one on here has said, but the process or policy is? No one on here has been asked by their boss to attend a meeting being held by another dept?

Seriously? And do people think that the scientific advice gets changed because of an opinion from a SPAD? Really?

Methinks there's some people with their head stuck up their own 'political bias.'

Absolutely. It's always a good policy to invite someone who is not involved deeply in the subject as they often see the issue in a detached light.

 

[Hobbit]

Why not be open about it then? Clearly Govt didn't want people to know Cummings was at SAGE. Govt forget they are elected by public. That's what is wrong and why it was a press story. You can defuse any story easily by being up front with people. Johnson acknowledged that error earlier today with the transparency comment and also offered cross party input. That was a good move even if he doesn't mean it.

Why be open about it? I'm not interested that Cummings was at a SAGE meeting. First of all no globally recognised scientist/expert is going to risk their reputation by making politically expedient decisions in the face of scientific evidence. That in itself will keep the govt honest.

"As for the govt forget they are elected by the public.." I'm not sure where you get that from but I can't see any hint of it. Its a representative democracy - they don't have to run to the public with everything. I think that as they're having daily public briefing, with their scientific advisors present, they're being very open.

 

[SocketRocket]

Why not be open about it then? Clearly Govt didn't want people to know Cummings was at SAGE. Govt forget they are elected by public. That's what is wrong and why it was a press story. You can defuse any story easily by being up front with people. Johnson acknowledged that error earlier today with the transparency comment and also offered cross party input. That was a good move even if he doesn't mean it.

Is there a list of Sage attendees? Do we really expect that level of information,, it seems like these type of comments are the product of anti Conservative venting or press sensationalism.

 

[funkycoldmedina]

I don't mind him being at the meetings as long as they're transparent. My only issue is with a spin doctor of any hue is that when the enquiries begin to happen and any errors come to light the bad decisions will have been led by the science and the good stuff attributed to the government.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

I'm not that fussed that Cummings is sitting in on SAGE meetings. I have no concerns about him influencing discussions and decisions of SAGE - I just can't see that happening. But 'to inform cabinet?' I thought that that's what the minutes of SAGE were for. The issue some will have is that Cummings isn't simply 'informing' cabinet - but that he's 'spinning' to the cabinet what he heard in SAGE and what they will read in the minutes.

Bottom line is that I don't really care what they do as long as they get it right - and from where we are today that is the current level of fatalities from Covid-19 being as bad as it gets before it reduces, and us not being subjected to a grim second wave in the Autumn...

There you go again, making little sandwiches. The General message is top and bottom, that you want the right outcome for everyone, whatever concerns there are etc etc, and right in the middle is the real message
Cummings is spinning, telling the Cabinet that despite what they read in the minutes, what they really should be understanding is what Cummings says it says.
Do you really think that this one man, with no official government standing, is able to ride roughshod over Cabinet ministers en masse, over the whole of SAG members each of whom has more cred in their little fingers than Cummings has, without there being some almighty comeback on Boris , of the kind he couldn't withstand?
If you were a top scientist and you had given advice, and then seen Cummings report ( in your word -spin) differently to the government, what would you do?
What would any of them do? With the free press that we have?
You'd create Holy Hell, that's what. You wouldn't have what you would then consider to be, some jumped up little , unqualified, PR man trashing your reputation in that way.
Especially when that well regarded scientist knows that the Country's press are poised to come down on him like a ton of bricks at the slightest opportunity.
Time to think past your prejudices.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Credit where it's due, Boris spoke well just now, some badly needed leadership at last even if there was nothing really new to say.
The 'transparency' word was great to hear though. See if he means it.

I have to admit to experiencing similar 'thinks' on Johnson.

My second thought was that he casts a giant shadow over pretty much all of his cabinet who have done briefings in his absence (I'll except Sunak and Hancock as they have done as well as I could expect).

My third 'thinks' were that he was telling us how well we have done - and I liked his use of 'we' rather than telling us it was all about the government - but I was not so sure that his positivity over what we have jointly (government plus public) achieved was actually that merited.

But notwithstanding any of that - welcome back Boris. You have been missed - seriously.

 

[User62651]

Why be open about it? I'm not interested that Cummings was at a SAGE meeting. First of all no globally recognised scientist/expert is going to risk their reputation by making politically expedient decisions in the face of scientific evidence. That in itself will keep the govt honest.

"As for the govt forget they are elected by the public.." I'm not sure where you get that from but I can't see any hint of it. Its a representative democracy - they don't have to run to the public with everything. I think that as they're having daily public briefing, with their scientific advisors present, they're being very open.

No Cummings is there to try and politically influence or steer SAGE when it should be independent, otherwise he could just read their reports. Govt know there are serious questions to come because tens of thousands are dead and need to manipulate to get least damage. If one of your family is a victim you want to know things were done right. 'Following the science' is key get out for govt but when things like Cheltenham Races, Champions League football, fully open airports were all allowed to continue when the virus was raging through parts of northern Italy in ski season with loads of Brits holidaying there, you need to ask why, even with benefit of hindsight so we learn for another time. They knew it was coming and appear to have acted slowly, that is evidenced by other countries early responses. Test track and trace had been wholly absent yet has been key for countries with best outcomes, along with harder lockdowns. We are only getting going now with testing.
Maybe we simply couldn't do that but questions must be asked. Cummings at SAGE looks dodgy, no 2 ways about it. Way too powerful/influential.

 

[Hobbit]

No Cummings is there to try and politically influence or steer SAGE when it should be independent, otherwise he could just read their reports. Govt know there are serious questions to come because tens of thousands are dead and need to manipulate to get least damage. If one of your family is a victim you want to know things were done right. 'Following the science' is key get out for govt but when things like Cheltenham Races, Champions League football, fully open airports were all allowed to continue when the virus was raging through parts of northern Italy in ski season with loads of Brits holidaying there, you need to ask why, even with benefit of hindsight so we learn for another time. They knew it was coming and appear to have acted slowly, that is evidenced by other countries early responses. Test track and trace had been wholly absent yet has been key for countries with best outcomes, along with harder lockdowns. We are only getting going now with testing.
Maybe we simply couldn't do that but questions must be asked. Cummings at SAGE looks dodgy, no 2 ways about it. Way too powerful/influential.

So you know Cummings is there to exert political influence? C'mon then, lets have some links, some proof of your wild assumption. How about a transcript of the minutes? You have those of course otherwise how you would say you know why Cummings is there. Lets see them then....

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

There you go again, making little sandwiches. The General message is top and bottom, that you want the right outcome for everyone, whatever concerns there are etc etc, and right in the middle is the real message
Cummings is spinning, telling the Cabinet that despite what they read in the minutes, what they really should be understanding is what Cummings says it says.
Do you really think that this one man, with no official government standing, is able to ride roughshod over Cabinet ministers en masse, over the whole of SAG members each of whom has more cred in their little fingers than Cummings has, without there being some almighty comeback on Boris , of the kind he couldn't withstand?
If you were a top scientist and you had given advice, and then seen Cummings report ( in your word -spin) differently to the government, what would you do?
What would any of them do? With the free press that we have?
You'd create Holy Hell, that's what. You wouldn't have what you would then consider to be, some jumped up little , unqualified, PR man trashing your reputation in that way.
Especially when that well regarded scientist knows that the Country's press are poised to come down on him like a ton of bricks at the slightest opportunity.
Time to think past your prejudices.

OK - so you are happy that in private discussions with Cabinet members over the last period, Johnson's chief advisor and spin doctor will not do anything other than tell it straight as agreed by SAGE...fair enough. However given Cummings' record and his role I'm not so certain...I'm not saying he'll contradict the SAGE agreed position - of course he won't (well I would hope that he wouldn't) - but he will inevitably put his own take on it. Because that is why he is there.

But as I said. I don't care as long as they get it right.

 

[User62651]

So you know Cummings is there to exert political influence? C'mon then, lets have some links, some proof of your wild assumption. How about a transcript of the minutes? You have those of course otherwise how you would say you know why Cummings is there. Lets see them then....

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck.....
He's top SPAD to Johnson Govt, not a minister, who has form for heavy interference, just ask S Javid. No reason to be there other than to lean on them for govt friendly output.
When my FoI request is returned with minutes I will happily share.

 

[Foxholer]

There you go again, making little sandwiches. The General message is top and bottom, that you want the right outcome for everyone, whatever concerns there are etc etc, and right in the middle is the real message
Cummings is spinning, telling the Cabinet that despite what they read in the minutes, what they really should be understanding is what Cummings says it says.
Do you really think that this one man, with no official government standing, is able to ride roughshod over Cabinet ministers en masse, over the whole of SAG members each of whom has more cred in their little fingers than Cummings has, without there being some almighty comeback on Boris , of the kind he couldn't withstand?
If you were a top scientist and you had given advice, and then seen Cummings report ( in your word -spin) differently to the government, what would you do?
What would any of them do? With the free press that we have?
You'd create Holy Hell, that's what. You wouldn't have what you would then consider to be, some jumped up little , unqualified, PR man trashing your reputation in that way.
Especially when that well regarded scientist knows that the Country's press are poised to come down on him like a ton of bricks at the slightest opportunity.
Time to think past your prejudices.

You seem, to me, to be saying pretty much exactly the same thing as SILH!
Try applying the last sentence of your post yourself!

Btw. I DO wonder what Cummings is doing there, but don't particularly care as lon as, in SILH's words...they get it right!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I don't actually really care much either.

Despite any suspicions I might hold given the man's admitted history of spin and scheming to the public in the interests of Johnson and the government - if he helps the government make the right decisions then that's fine by me.

In time it is the government and Johnson who be judged by the public on their handling of the coronavirus pandemic - not Cummings. Johnson can listen to whomsoever he wants - as long as Cummings is not influencing the decisions and advice given by SAGE. Cummings can try and influence what Johnson does with the advice - what advice Johnson accepts is the prerogative of the PM and the government.

 

[patricks148]

This is the second post you've mentioned Shirley this morning. Are you developing an obsession?

i was hoping the reply would be don't call me Shirley, but looks like it went over heads