Conceding putts in match play.

[backwoodsman]

In my "How many ..." thread the actual result was of no consequence - but several people alluded to league-type situations where the difference between 7&6 and 8&6 might matter - and in that situation I really should have had to make the putt to gain the 8&6 result rather than have it conceded to me.

Does it not follow that any win or half of a hole - at any stage of a match - has an effect on the final result? And so is it "right" to concede any putts in a match where the final "score" has a consequence to other players or teams?? Thoughts?

 

[Fish]

Based on what you're asking are you saying it would be best all round to never concede because in the grand scheme of things, any putt can be missed!

It's all part and parcel of Matchplay IMO where I may give some 2 footers early doors but then a little later and when it really matters, not, the extra pressure is all about that one-on-one match and no thought should be given to how the score in that match should or could affect others.

 

[Craigg]

Based on what you're asking are you saying it would be best all round to never concede because in the grand scheme of things, any putt can be missed!

It's all part and parcel of Matchplay IMO where I may give some 2 footers early doors but then a little later and when it really matters, not, the extra pressure is all about that one-on-one match and no thought should be given to how the score in that match should or could affect others.

I think what the op is alluding to is that every putt "really matters", and to give one early on could cost as much as giving one later.

 

[Imurg]

I've never been a fan of Gimmees..as stated, any putt can be missed, any putt can be holed.
If a putt is a Gimmee, in my mind, its virtually unmissable - so knock it in and let's move on!
The game is about knocking the ball in the hole after all.....

 

[backwoodsman]

The point was that if a final putt could change a result from 7&6 to 8&6 - and if that change mattered to others players (in a league or something) - then some folk were saying in the other thread, that it should not be conceded, and the player made to putt out. My point was that any conceded putt in a match could have the same effect on the end result - so if the eventual result matters to other players outside that particular match, then should concessions be given - or allowed even?

Note I'm not referring to "ordinary" matchplay where results are recorded as simple wins/halves/losses and there is no difference between a 2&1 win or a 9&8 win.

 

[chrisd]

The point was that if a final putt could change a result from 7&6 to 8&6 - and if that change mattered to others players (in a league or something) - then some folk were saying in the other thread, that it should not be conceded, and the player made to putt out. My point was that any conceded putt in a match could have the same effect on the end result - so if the eventual result matters to other players outside that particular match, then should concessions be given - or allowed even?

Note I'm not referring to "ordinary" matchplay where results are recorded as simple wins/halves/losses and there is no difference between a 2&1 win or a 9&8 win.

In some ways it's very difficult to control that given that the rules of golf say that you can't refuse a concession. It may well be a 4bbb where the pair giving the concession aren't affected by the result but others in a league maybe are.

 

[UlyssesSky]

The point was that if a final putt could change a result from 7&6 to 8&6 - and if that change mattered to others players (in a league or something) - then some folk were saying in the other thread, that it should not be conceded, and the player made to putt out.

I'd say the final and deciding putt of any match should only be given if it's not more than a tap in (1 foot max). I just feel like it's a matter of sportsmanship to actually hole the final putt and not have it given to you. Also, who doesn't like to seal his win with the sweet sound of the ball going in the cup?

Before giving the final putt to your opponent, maybe ask yourself this question "if this was the Ryder Cup, this was the last and deciding singles match, we are on the 18th green and the match is A/S, would I give this putt to win the match?" If the answer is no, you probably shouldn't give the putt.

My point was that any conceded putt in a match could have the same effect on the end result - so if the eventual result matters to other players outside that particular match, then should concessions be given - or allowed even?

When other player outside the match come into the equation it gets interesting.. People may give a putt out of frustration, thinking "I don't care if we lose 7&6 or 8&6", not thinking (and/or caring) about the potential consequences for others.

So maybe in cases like that there should be a rule saying all deciding putts can't be given.

 

[chrisd]

I'd say the final and deciding putt of any match should only be given if it's not more than a tap in (1 foot max). I just feel like it's a matter of sportsmanship to actually hole the final putt and not have it given to you. Also, who doesn't like to seal his win with the sweet sound of the ball going in the cup?

Before giving the final putt to your opponent, maybe ask yourself this question "if this was the Ryder Cup, this was the last and deciding singles match, we are on the 18th green and the match is A/S, would I give this putt to win the match?" If the answer is no, you probably shouldn't give the putt.



When other player outside the match come into the equation it gets interesting.. People may give a putt out of frustration, thinking "I don't care if we lose 7&6 or 8&6", not thinking (and/or caring) about the potential consequences for others.

So maybe in cases like that there should be a rule saying all deciding putts can't be given.

How can you make a rule that breaks a rule of golf?

 

[UlyssesSky]

How can you make a rule that breaks a rule of golf?

We're talking about a hypothetical question here, so why not assume that any of the future decisions or changes to the rules of golf may cover this situation?


Until then, the committee could state in the rules of the comp that the concession of putts that has an effect on the final result of the match can lead to a significant disadvantage for others, and thus will be seen as against the spirit of the game and as a serious breach of the etiquette and will lead to a DQ under rule 33-7?

I'm just brainstorming here, but maybe we should first discuss wether or not this should be allowed or not and then think about how this could be dealt with rules wise?

You're objection may be justified, but doesn't really help resolving the OP's question.

 

[chrisd]

I don't see how a committee can bring in a competition rule that breaks the rules of golf and then threaten DQ for not following the rules of the competition under the guise of "serious breach of etiquette"

 

[UlyssesSky]

You didn't get my point.

Instead of elaborating how prohibiting to concede putts is impossible under the current rules of golf, you could join us in the discussion wether or not it's (morally) right to concede a putt in situations where it doesn't matter to you but potentially has negative effect on third parties outside the match.

If we agree putts shouldn't be conceded under this circumstances we can then start thinking about if and how this should be implemented into the rules of golf.

Before we get to that point, I couldn't care less about any rules question regarding this matter.

 

[BTatHome]

I would think the competition rules for deciding the overall outcome need to be decided differently. Having the action of one player decide the outcome of the league doesn't sound good when the team involved are not actually part of the tiebreak situation.

The chances of it happening must be quite small unless you have a very low number of teams, or very low number of matches.

Ive certainly seen our local scratch match league decided on a whitewash result where the 7-0 win (due to a team not being able to play) made a huge impact on the team prize, the individual prize and the team being relegated!

 

[chrisd]

You didn't get my point.

Instead of elaborating how prohibiting to concede putts is impossible under the current rules of golf, you could join us in the discussion wether or not it's (morally) right to concede a putt in situations where it doesn't matter to you but potentially has negative effect on third parties outside the match.

If we agree putts shouldn't be conceded under this circumstances we can then start thinking about if and how this should be implemented into the rules of golf.

Before we get to that point, I couldn't care less about any rules question regarding this matter.

I really do get your point, but, the rules of golf aren't ever going to be changed to suit this situation and can you imagine just how stupid it would be to say that you can concede this, but you can't concede that, etc etc.

I don't honestly believe that it affects many competitions - our own 4bbb winter league has a score based method to separate ties in the group stage (I wrote the rules) but no one in another game would know that a 7 and 6 win should/could have been 8 and 6. It's just an anomaly that we just have to accept I'm afraid, as trying to legislate for it would cause more problems than it would solve

 

[duncan mackie]

I'm confused the principle of this thread seems flawed to me.

At any point in any match you have the potential to affect the outcome of the match by any concession; even if scores aren't relevant you could affect the win or loss!

So that's me confused about what's being asked.

As to the wider question of gimmes - that discuss on isn't really rules related and we haven't had the usual 20 pages on the subject in the lounge for at least 3 weeks...

 

[backwoodsman]

Hmmm... I seem to have confused people? I think it may be a case of keeping my musings to myself when it involve what one might term "non-standard formats"

 

[rulefan]

Conceding doesn't only require a stroke to be conceded. A hole or a match can be conceded at any time. Unless something specific was said or an action clearly indicated the intent, this could simply be a concession of the match.

A player is 5 up with 8 to play but suddenly realises he has to be elsewhere or gets injured. He says 'I concede the match'.
What is the Rules result? What is the league score recorded?

 

[ger147]

A rather extreme example but on a similar theme to rulefan's above...

What if you were 3 up with 3 to play but injured yourself playing your tee shot on the 16th and decide to concede the match as you know you cannot continue due to your injury. What result/score would be recorded then?

 

[rulie]

Since this is a Rule of golf forum, I'll give you the answer according to the Rules - if you concede a match, the other side is the winner. It's not necessary to record anything else.
The Rules cannot/will not answer questions on non-conforming conditions - that is entirely up to the Committee in charge.

 

[rulefan]

I have never refereed a match where the player has conceded before dormie had been reached but have seen a few and been advised that if the situation arises the announcement is 'A wins the match by concession'.

If a hole is conceded after the 'winner' has putted out, the call would be 'A wins the hole in n. The score is ....'

If the 'winner' had not putted out but the hole is conceded, the call would be 'A wins the hole by concession. The score is ....'

If a stroke is conceded to give a win, the call is 'A wins the hole by concession. .......'

If a stroke is conceded to give a half, the call is 'The hole is halved in n. .......'

If the player who has holed out concedes a stroke for the half, the call is 'The hole is halved in x. ......'

The number of strokes is only announced for a ball in the hole.

The score simply says how many holes the leading player leads by. The number of remaining holes is not announced.

Logically, if the last hole played produces a match result, whether by concession or play, the call would be
"'zzzzz' . A wins the match 'x and 'y' ".
Where 'zzzzz' is the expression in italics appropriate to the situations listed above, 'x' is the net number of holes won and 'y' the number of unplayed holes.
There is no requirement to announce 'x' and 'y' but it is usually done as a courtesy to spectators and as confirmation of the score to the players.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I've never been a fan of Gimmees..as stated, any putt can be missed, any putt can be holed.
If a putt is a Gimmee, in my mind, its virtually unmissable - so knock it in and let's move on!
The game is about knocking the ball in the hole after all.....

I'd much prefer to see everything holed which is why I am a bit tight when it comes to the length of putt I concede. If I look at it and think there is life left in it then they putt it, even if it's only 12". If they have a couple of putts from 4 or 5 feet I'll see them make the first putt at least. I'm happy to make every putt so it has to be basically in the hole before I'm conceding anything.