Changes to Highest Male Handicap

[YorkshireStu]

I think that a change to the handicap system to a maximum of 40 would be a change for the better.

Golf is already associated with a male dominated image, stuffy clubs and a high cost to play. Making newbies feel less like a failure when they're starting out can only encourage the 20 and 30-somethings who never have, to pick up a club for the first time. A true handicap system should reflect the true range of levels, if somebody genuinely is a 38 handicapper, then why not even up the odds? Otherwise everybody may as well just play off scratch.

 

[jp5]

There should be no upper limit to handicap, just split comps into divisions. 0-24, 25+ etc.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Precisely. Then it went to 24 which was absolutely ample.


My view is that golf has gone mad - the idea of increased upper handicap thresholds seems completely ludicrous to me.

A shot a hole plus 4 spare for the hardest holes is plenty for an adult male so 22 would seem to be an appropriate limit to me. 28 handicap for seniors and juniors that need more if in the infancy of their development or twilight of their career. Up to 36 for ladies but again, some form of lower limit for those that are not juniors or seniors.

I am not being a handicap snob. I am basing this on my experience of golf, having seen thousands of players of all standards over the past 35 years of playing at dozens of courses.

My opinion, and I appreciate it is somewhat divisive and incendiary, is that more than 24 over par for a normal bloke who has played for a while is utterly rubbish as a sporting achievement. It represents very poor standard of play and common sense would suggest that such a round would be peppered with some awful shots, poor decision making, lapses in concentration and an overriding inability to perform at an acceptable level.

It is the golfing equivalent of playing a frame of snooker and being unable to pot anything but the simplest ball over the pocket. Or a game of tennis where you are basically incapable of getting a serve in play for half the time. This equates to being rubbish at your chosen sporting pursuit. Same for business - you shouldn't get your annual bonus if you aren't very good at your job and miss three quarters of your set goals.

I appreciate this may be unpalatable to hear but in golf, you are not supposed to be pleased with a nett 68 if your gross score was almost 100. Shooting that score is pretty useless in terms of the level of prowess required.

And yet plenty of you seem to think that it is okay for someone at this very low level of skill to be given a big silver trophy, their name on the board and a nice prize from the top shelf for winning Captains Day or similar at your club? I just cannot agree. This is rewarding a pretty abject effort and it is not right.

In golf you are supposed to try and get par on a hole. It isn't a holy grail that is out of reach - it is what you are meant to score! This means being at least good enough to hit the fairway some of the time, get near the green and have a short game that is half decent. When these things are achieved to a reasonable standard then bogey golf should be possible in fair weather conditions. If you have been playing golf for a significant length of time and can't manage even the basics of the game then you have to accept that it might not be for you OR you aren't good enough YET to win prizes and matches against others. Therefore you must improve.

Apologies if this offends but I am of the view that if you are a poor player then you don't need more shots, you just need to get a bit better than rubbish. Especially if you want to be the winner of an event. Total mediocrity should not win prizes.

The majority of what you've said I find very agreeable and sensible, the only point/question i would add is. Irrelevant to what the handicap is raised to, surely Clubs have the authority to put handicap limits on competitions, just like clubs do for some opens now. That way all who enter a comp know exactly what they're up against, if they're concerned, don't enter, surely it can't be that hard?

 

[Snelly]

Define a while......

what 6 months? a year? 2 years?

I suppose it depends on the individual. Some people are better than others at learning.

If I said 2 years then it might be a little arbitrary but it feels about right. 2 years of pretty regular golf would give most people enough time to basically stop doing the things that were making them a bad player and enhance the things they were doing right as a learning machine which of course, we all are.

So let's say two years of dedication, effort and practice (e.g. a game a week and some chipping practice in the garden or putting the lounge carpet) should mean that you can connect club to ball properly for most of the time and have learned enough about the short game to have a clue what you are doing. You would also like to think that after two years, an understanding of course management and playing within limitations and to your strengths would be there as well.

In summary then, after two years of effort and application, you should have got to a level where you can compete with other players on a relatively level playing field and are ready to pit your skills against the rest of the club - e.g. playing regularly to a handicap of 22. If you haven't got to this point then you should be asking serious questions as to why not if you are serious about being a golfer and then keep persevering.

 

[Snelly]

The majority of what you've said I find very agreeable and sensible, the only point/question i would add is. Irrelevant to what the handicap is raised to, surely Clubs have the authority to put handicap limits on competitions, just like clubs do for some opens now. That way all who enter a comp know exactly what they're up against, if they're concerned, don't enter, surely it can't be that hard?

I agree. I think all clubs should be adopting this approach.

 

[DCB]

I've read through this a couple of times just to make sure I was reading what I was reading. Everyone has to start somewhere, so what's wrong with helping the newer, less capable golfer of being able to enjoy the game. If a club has a properly formed Handicap Committee then there shouldn't be any issues if they do their job properly, using whatever system we are using to keep handicaps reflective of a players ability.

All this max 18, no 2 strokes per hole etc is just handicap snobbery IMO. Get over it, it's just a game we play for enjoyment. If it helps the less capable golfee play the game and enjoy it so be it.

 

[drew83]

I suppose it depends on the individual. Some people are better than others at learning.

If I said 2 years then it might be a little arbitrary but it feels about right. 2 years of pretty regular golf would give most people enough time to basically stop doing the things that were making them a bad player and enhance the things they were doing right as a learning machine which of course, we all are.

So let's say two years of dedication, effort and practice (e.g. a game a week and some chipping practice in the garden or putting the lounge carpet) should mean that you can connect club to ball properly for most of the time and have learned enough about the short game to have a clue what you are doing. You would also like to think that after two years, an understanding of course management and playing within limitations and to your strengths would be there as well.

In summary then, after two years of effort and application, you should have got to a level where you can compete with other players on a relatively level playing field and are ready to pit your skills against the rest of the club - e.g. playing regularly to a handicap of 22. If you haven't got to this point then you should be asking serious questions as to why not if you are serious about being a golfer and then keep persevering.

And for those that can't get out weekly? Either through family commitments? Financial implications? Are you saying that they shouldn't be allowed to play comps etc with a higher handicap? Just because they don't have the time to play as frequently?

If so then I would say these are the types mentality that prevent more people taking up the game.

I get out once a fortnight if i'm lucky & do practice a little in the garden/at the range. But I know that I won't be coming down any time soon to what seems to be the "desired" handicap.

Maybe I will just remove myself from this thread before I say something I regret.....

 

[drew83]

I've read through this a couple of times just to make sure I was reading what I was reading. Everyone has to start somewhere, so what's wrong with helping the newer, less capable golfer of being able to enjoy the game. If a club has a properly formed Handicap Committee then there shouldn't be any issues if they do their job properly, using whatever system we are using to keep handicaps reflective of a players ability.

All this max 18, no 2 strokes per hole etc is just handicap snobbery IMO. Get over it, it's just a game we play for enjoyment. If it helps the less capable golfee play the game and enjoy it so be it.

my point in my last post....

 

[Smiffy]

I think that a good indicator is to stick somebody on a fairly straightforward par 3 of about 150 yards.
Ask them what club they would hit, and if they say anything bigger than a 6 iron, decline their membership application.
That would sort the wheat from the chaff.

 

[Snelly]

And for those that can't get out weekly? Either through family commitments? Financial implications? Are you saying that they shouldn't be allowed to play comps etc with a higher handicap? Just because they don't have the time to play as frequently?

If so then I would say these are the types mentality that prevent more people taking up the game.

I get out once a fortnight if i'm lucky & do practice a little in the garden/at the range. But I know that I won't be coming down any time soon to what seems to be the "desired" handicap.

Maybe I will just remove myself from this thread before I say something I regret.....

I am not saying any of those things, no.

What stops you from doing 10 minutes of chipping practice in the garden every night? What stops you from 10 minutes of putting practice on the lounge carpet every night? Eastenders? If you did this, you would be a much, much better short game player in a relatively short space of time.

All this prevention to taking up the game stuff is a red herring in my view. I haven't yet seen the slogan promoting golf that reads "Play golf - the sport you can be crap at and still beat everyone else! Cher-Ching!"

 

[drew83]

I would suggest anyone who cannot score 36 points off the current maximum handicap be that 28 for men, 36 for women would benefit from playing easier shorter courses like municipals.

It is so much easier to learn and improve at golf playing this type of golf. Par 3 courses are great for tightening short games.

Playing courses that are too long and or hard when you are not ready just put too much strain on weak parts of your game.

Are some saying that women should be allowed a higher handicap because they can't hit it as far or may be of less of a standard than men?

Maybe if they can't they should also get their own courses? Going by the above if newbies shouldn't be allowed to play on "normal" courses because they need 28 shots, women shouldn't be allowed on a "normal" course for needing up to 36?

Seriously???

Come on!!

Golf is meant to be trying to change it's image of being a stuffy old boys club sport......this kind of thinking is what keeps people thinking of golf like that!!

A course is there to be played. Men, women, children, newbies, youngsters, middle aged experienced players. Giving people a little extra help to be competitive can only be a good thing!!

More people on courses, playing in comps, increasing club revenue...how is that bad???????

 

[drew83]

I am not saying any of those things, no.

What stops you from doing 10 minutes of chipping practice in the garden every night? What stops you from 10 minutes of putting practice on the lounge carpet every night? Eastenders? If you did this, you would be a much, much better short game player in a relatively short space of time.

All this prevention to taking up the game stuff is a red herring in my view. I haven't yet seen the slogan promoting golf that reads "Play golf - the sport you can be crap at and still beat everyone else! Cher-Ching!"

Working & not getting in till 6.30 or 7 most nights. Sometimes later if the trains are up the spout. Then when I get in it's dinner & trying to get some studying & assignments written for work qualifications.

I have an elderly (nearly 90 year old) nan who needs some extra care most nights as my mum works various hours & has to travel for work a bit.

I have a wife who works as a nurse & nearly 13 year old daughter that needs extra help with her homework sometimes.

And yes, after being out from 6.30am till 7pm I am a little tired & after studying etc till 9pm, getting bits ready for the next day, I do like to sit & watch a bit of tv to wind down.

 

[garyinderry]

I have played the local courses, without achieving the magic 36.....I play off 28.

I have increased over the last 3 months from around 12 points to 21 last Saturday. I have been back playing for about 16 months.

even on some of the shorter courses.

I don't enter medals at the moment;

a)no membership
b) they don't allow handicaps over 18 as far as I have seen so far.

I am going to be a loooooong time before I can even consider entering. The guys I play with vary from 14's ,18's low 20's to me at 28.

They don't want to be playing little pitch & putt courses & I wouldn't either. I need the tougher courses to give me the challenge to improve.

If I was still knocking around a smaller easier course, got to the 36 points a few times then went to a "big boy" course then I would see a drop in scores, and lose heart.

it's like driving (a car).

Learners have to start somewhere. they don't get a separate lane or road network to practice on. They learn all real roads with other real cars.

As I said earlier, I don't want to see an increase in handicaps as 28 is sufficient. It would be nice as I would have more chance in the family stableford days, but that's life.

dont take offence. the guys you play with dont want you playing pitch and putt courses, or they dont want to have to go and play these courses with you. i am telling you through experience that you will improve your iron play and therefore you ball striking by playing more on par 3 courses. less time spent looking for balls. less time between shots. in the same time it takes for 9 holes of a long course you can get around the par 3 twice meaning you have the chance to practice chipping and putting twice as many times.

you claim to not have much time then use it wisely if you want to improve.

btw learners tend to start driving well away from normal traffic if they have any sense. an empty car park, a quiet back road or industrial park is ideal to learn the basics before attempting to drive on normal roads never mind busy junctions.


i have introduced many friends to golf via the range then the par 3, the slightly longer muni course before some moved onto full sized course. they have enjoyed the progression. the last two started with handicaps of 18 and 26. the 26 handicap has only entered one comp and has decided himself that he wants to really improve this year before giving the comps a real go. he is currently out most evenings himself, calling me the next day to tell me how it went.

you also claim you will lose heart when you move to the big course and see a drop in scores. i don't really think this is the case for any rational thinker. surely this is to be expected and part of the challenge of golf that you already seem to be embracing as you have moved from 12 points to 21.

enjoy the ride of golf. no one wants you to stop playing. its takes time to be ok at this game. that is the addictive challenge. people will not hang around the game longer because you give them 40 shots. they still have the same ability. the goals posts have been moved.

no one is stopping people chart their progress off any handicap, i just dont feel its worth handing out medals until they reach at least a 28 handicap. ive mellowed since the last time this debate arose. it was 18 but i suppose 28 is fine as it is. 40 is taking the piss as a measure of good golf.

as i said before, happy to remove all prizes. handshakes and a slap on the back would do just fine for any winner in the amateur game.

 

[ArnoldArmChewer]

Lets make dart boards three times their current size, snooker pockets like dustbins and while we are about it have a second bigger unguarded goal in footy some them that can't shoot straight have a chance to score.

Golf is never going to be easy, you need to put the effort in, not be rewarded for being poor as has been said quite rightly in recent posts.

 

[drew83]

Gary,

I think this is going to be an agree to disagree.

I enjoy playing the tougher longer courses. I like seeing my points increase little by little. I know that I could improve faster if I had the time but I don't.

As I said in a much earlier post, I would like a higher handicap to give me a chance of seeing 36 points on my card & get into a few competitions. I am not saying I want to play against a scratch but there are no comps around for 28's that I have seen & at the moment I wouldn't be able to get to 36 points of 28.

HOWEVER, I see 28 as being plenty. Yes ok, I don't see 36 points but so what? I am there to enjoy the game, enjoy the break from my little hectic life. I'm 32 & hopefully will have a long golfing career ahead of me & I wish I had taken it up earlier in life.

I don't want to see handicaps increase to 36 or 40 or whatever. But for people on here to say "1 shot a hole is more than enough" is very unfair & disrespectful to those that need a little more help starting out. It is just a little small minded in my opinion. Everyone starts somewhere.

I'm sure that if those that think 18 is sufficient went back to their 1st 12-24 months or so of playing they would remember how much they enjoyed playing but also how bad some of their cards may have been!!

 

[MadAdey]

Working & not getting in till 6.30 or 7 most nights. Sometimes later if the trains are up the spout. Then when I get in it's dinner & trying to get some studying & assignments written for work qualifications.

I have an elderly (nearly 90 year old) nan who needs some extra care most nights as my mum works various hours & has to travel for work a bit.

I have a wife who works as a nurse & nearly 13 year old daughter that needs extra help with her homework sometimes.

And yes, after being out from 6.30am till 7pm I am a little tired & after studying etc till 9pm, getting bits ready for the next day, I do like to sit & watch a bit of tv to wind down.

I feel for you, I really do and golf is a game for all to enjoy and it can be tough on some. Golf is a game that absorbs a lot of spare time and when you don't have it, well you will always struggle to get any better. Thing is if this is the case then maybe it needs putting on the back burner for a couple of years until you can play more often.

My dad loved playing golf and had a low handicap, but he took a new job and it absorbed a lot of his time. Couple that with young kids and he gave up playing as he just couldn't play as often as he wanted. One day about 5 years later a letter arrived from the golf club that he had put his name on a waiting list for, inviting him to join. My mum covinced him to take it as he had more spare time, my older brother had moved out, I was now 13 and my other brother 11, so we didn't need looking after round the clock. I'm glad he did though as I soon started joining him to play.

I'm not saying that youI have got to stop playing because you do not have the time to get better. I'm just saying that maybe at the present time golf isn't something that you can fit into your life.

BTW Drew, I'm not a golf snob and if I still lived in the UK and you where up my way I would be more than happy to play 18 and have a couple of beers afterwards.

 

[Canary_Yellow]

I suppose it depends on the individual. Some people are better than others at learning.

If I said 2 years then it might be a little arbitrary but it feels about right. 2 years of pretty regular golf would give most people enough time to basically stop doing the things that were making them a bad player and enhance the things they were doing right as a learning machine which of course, we all are.

So let's say two years of dedication, effort and practice (e.g. a game a week and some chipping practice in the garden or putting the lounge carpet) should mean that you can connect club to ball properly for most of the time and have learned enough about the short game to have a clue what you are doing. You would also like to think that after two years, an understanding of course management and playing within limitations and to your strengths would be there as well.

In summary then, after two years of effort and application, you should have got to a level where you can compete with other players on a relatively level playing field and are ready to pit your skills against the rest of the club - e.g. playing regularly to a handicap of 22. If you haven't got to this point then you should be asking serious questions as to why not if you are serious about being a golfer and then keep persevering.

I don't really disagree with what you're saying, and I tend to agree that with effort and application people should be able to get to a handicap of 22.

However, people play the game for lots of different reasons, many just like to get out and about and enjoy the social aspect with being overly concerned about the score element. With that in mind, I would prefer to allow higher handicaps but to cap them for club competitions (or certain comps at least). I wouldn't want a system that pushed people towards being society members rather than club members, which I think reducing the maximum handicap might do.

 

[drew83]

Madadey,

I have the time to play once a fortnight & occasionally a little bit of practice time. What I was getting at is, just because I can't get out once or twice a week & spend hours practicing, why should I be penalised? Why should the handicap be capped at 18 for example?

A lack of time means I will progress much slower than someone with the time to practice. But why should I miss out on a hobby because I am not able to practice loads & get my scores down?

I just think some people on here think they are/should be pro's and anyone that can't play as well as them shouldn't be allowed on the course.

 

[drew83]

I don't really disagree with what you're saying, and I tend to agree that with effort and application people should be able to get to a handicap of 22.

However, people play the game for lots of different reasons, many just like to get out and about and enjoy the social aspect with being overly concerned about the score element. With that in mind, I would prefer to allow higher handicaps but to cap them for club competitions (or certain comps at least). I wouldn't want a system that pushed people towards being society members rather than club members, which I think reducing the maximum handicap might do.

This! +1

 

[chrisd]

I played on Sunday with one of the clubs perrenial moaners, pace of play, organisation of the comp etc etc, you can be sure that he and his mates are going to be apoplectic if this is introduced. There are members at every club who want to turn their club, and golf, back to 1963. The fact is that the game is struggling to recruit players, young and old, and member clubs need to find ways to encourage membership. If someone is truly, say, a 36 handicap golfer he is likely to be given 28 to start and allowed to enter comps. I see nothing wrong with allowing him to play off 36 and making him competitive. He won't take any more time on the course than he would have anyway and I think most clubs would split competitions according to some sort of handicap banding.

I think recruiting new golfers is paramount, but clubs have to understand that just getting someone to join, taking their money and pointing them in the direction of the 1st tee is no way to integrate people for the long term and maybe, just maybe, increasing handicaps will help new golfers to feel easier about the hardest game that there is.