Casual water moving the ball

[verschup]

Hi,

Two weeks ago, while playing our weekly round of golf, we had to take cover for the usual drop of rain during the summer.

After it stoped raining we tied up and fired our balls onto the fairway. One of my friend's ball had landed in a stream of casual water running through the fairway. This stream of course was a result of the rainshower just moments before.

The stream was so strong it took the ball with it. This stream ended up into a water hazar about 30yds back down the fairway.

Now the question of course is, what is the ruling here?

Can you just pick up the ball and drop it outside the casual water, closest to where it probably would have landed? Do you have to wait untill it stops and then take a drop?

Thanks,

Pim

 

[Imurg]

Hi and welcome..

I reckon you have to play it where it stops. So if it enters a hazard you proceed as per the rules.
Don't think you can pick it up while it's moving in the water.

I'm sure Mashie, Duncan and Colin will be along soon to confirm or ridicule.......

 

[PhilTheFragger]

But can you argue that the raging torrent is an outside influence

just muddying the waters

Fragger

 

[MadAdey]

I am sure you would have to wait for the ball to stop moving. Unless the ball was at standstill, then when the water came the ball moved. I think you would go back to the point that the ball was in. Not sure really but it is a good one for the rulesmen on this site.

 

[Colin L]

Good one verschup.

Here's my take on it.

If a ball lands in a water hazard and ends up being taken downstream and out of bounds or lands in a stream OOB and is taken back into bounds, the determining factor is where the ball comes to rest. If it finished OOB it is OOB and vice versa. If a ball goes into a water hazard and bounces off a rock back on to the fairway, it's on the fairway. If a ball goes into a rabbit hole the entrance of which is in bounds but ends up OOB underground, the ball is OOB. In short, there are analogous situations to say that the OP's ball is in the water hazard because that is where it came to rest and you would play under 26-1 a or b. If proceeding under 26-1 b (dropping back along the line between ball and hole), you would take as the point of the reference the place where the water carried the ball over the margin of the hazard.

It wouldn't matter if the ball had first come to rest in the casual water as water, like wind, is not an outside agency. So if the ball stopped in the water and was subsequently carried off by the current, it would be just as if a ball had come to rest and then been blown by the wind - play the ball from wherever it was carried to.

 

[CMAC]

so just a rub of the green then?

 

[Colin L]

so just a rub of the green then?

To be pedantic, no. A rub of the green by definition is only when a ball is accidentally stopped or deflected by an outside agency.

But in the way we all use the term just to mean sh*t happens, or in a better moment, sometimes you get a lucky - then yes, a rub of the green. (The lucky in this instance would have been for the flow of casual water to carry the ball and deposit it on the green!)

 

[verschup]

Thanks for the clarification Colin,

It seems like we did the right thing. We waited till the ball stopped, my friend quickly picked it up and took a free drop outside the casual water.

Seems like some rules are logic after all

 

[Robobum]

It seems like we did the right thing.

not sure you did!!??

If the casual water was a running torrent, the right thing to do would be head for a pint at the bar!!!!!

Rule 55.3.1 subsection 12

 

[verschup]

I understand, but from the moment it comes to rest, even for a brief moment, you're alowed to pick it up (mark it first if necesary) and drop it.
A ball is “at rest” when it has come to a stop. Except for the unique situation of a ball overhanging the hole (where you are entitled to wait ten seconds to see if it will drop into the hole), there is no rule that specifies how long the ball must be motionless before it is deemed to be “at rest.”

 

[brendy]

Heres another angle, had you played with undue delay you wouldnt have had to worry

 

[Colin L]

Thanks for the clarification Colin,

It seems like we did the right thing. We waited till the ball stopped, my friend quickly picked it up and took a free drop outside the casual water.

Seems like some rules are logic after all

OOPS!!!! If I got the picture right from what you said, the ball came to rest in a water hazard? You don't get relief from casual water in a water hazard. See Rule 25-1b. His options were to play the ball as it lay or to take relief with a penalty stroke from the water hazard. If, however, the ball stopped before it reached the hazard and your friend was able to lift it before it moved again, then he could proceed to take free relief from the casual water.

You are right about lifting the ball the moment it ball comes to rest. (You will see players moving rather quickly to mark on the putting green when it is very windy in case their ball is blown further away.) You don't need to mark a ball that is in casual water.

 

[Fader]

Doubt this helps, but there is a local rule at my place that if the ball comes to rest inside one of the drainage pipes (that lay inside the dithces) then a free drop is given. Oh how people wish for their ball to be washed up one of those off the first tee, only to find the ditch all dry and the ball sitting in the middle of it meaning a penalty drop

 

[duncan mackie]

Good one verschup.

Here's my take on it.

If a ball lands in a water hazard and ends up being taken downstream and out of bounds or lands in a stream OOB and is taken back into bounds, the determining factor is where the ball comes to rest. If it finished OOB it is OOB and vice versa. If a ball goes into a water hazard and bounces off a rock back on to the fairway, it's on the fairway. If a ball goes into a rabbit hole the entrance of which is in bounds but ends up OOB underground, the ball is OOB. In short, there are analogous situations to say that the OP's ball is in the water hazard because that is where it came to rest and you would play under 26-1 a or b. If proceeding under 26-1 b (dropping back along the line between ball and hole), you would take as the point of the reference the place where the water carried the ball over the margin of the hazard.

It wouldn't matter if the ball had first come to rest in the casual water as water, like wind, is not an outside agency. So if the ball stopped in the water and was subsequently carried off by the current, it would be just as if a ball had come to rest and then been blown by the wind - play the ball from wherever it was carried to.

Whilst happy with the analogy in the situations outlined, I think it's also valid to consider fully 14-6 by analogy too, although it deals with balls moving in water hazards. In that instance if you wished to proceed under rule 26 you may lift the moving ball. The reference point would be where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard etc

In this instance I would be happy with a player wishing to proceed under rule 25 (AGC - casual water) stopping the moving ball and using that position as the reference point for relief.

 

[CMAC]

OOPS!!!! If I got the picture right from what you said, the ball came to rest in a water hazard? You don't get relief from casual water in a water hazard. See Rule 25-1b. His options were to play the ball as it lay or to take relief with a penalty stroke from the water hazard. If, however, the ball stopped before it reached the hazard and your friend was able to lift it before it moved again, then he could proceed to take free relief from the casual water.

You are right about lifting the ball the moment it ball comes to rest. (You will see players moving rather quickly to mark on the putting green when it is very windy in case their ball is blown further away.) You don't need to mark a ball that is in casual water.

not a water hazard, think he said it was clear, then it poured and the rain then formed a torrent/stream which moved the ball. I wondered why in a previous post you laid out all the water hazard rules

 

[Colin L]

Whilst happy with the analogy in the situations outlined, I think it's also valid to consider fully 14-6 by analogy too, although it deals with balls moving in water hazards. In that instance if you wished to proceed under rule 26 you may lift the moving ball. The reference point would be where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard etc

In this instance I would be happy with a player wishing to proceed under rule 25 (AGC - casual water) stopping the moving ball and using that position as the reference point for relief.

Thanks, Duncan.
I hadn't thought of 14-6 to be honest, and my initial thought when you prompted me to do so, was that it is not analogous because if you stop and lift a moving ball in a water hazard and proceed under Rule 26, it makes no difference whether the ball is stopped in one part of the hazard or comes to rest further on in the hazard - the procedure and penalty are the same and you might save a bit of time. Whereas stopping the ball moving in the casual water and preventing it being carried into the water hazard saves you from a situation which could involve a penalty and leaves you with free relief. Stopping a moving ball to avoid getting into a disadvantageous position feels wrong!

Then I thought, but 14-6 would allow you to stop a ball being carried out of bounds and having to proceed under 27-1. So the analogy seems sound.

So, I'm astonished to think that we are contemplating two situations where the rules allow you to stop a ball in motion in order to avoid its getting into a worse position. But we are, aren't we?

 

[Colin L]

As a postscript to the above, the recommendation that the Committee fit a mesh or something to prevent balls in a water hazard being carried OOB suggests that it is not envisaged that going OOB is a fair or desirable outcome. Can we carry that across to the moving casual water and consider that your ball being swept into a hazard by casual water is not a fair or desirable outcome too?

 

[Twire]

Hi,


The stream was so strong it took the ball with it. This stream ended up into a water hazar about 30yds back down the fairway.

Quote from the OP

not a water hazard, think he said it was clear, then it poured and the rain then formed a torrent/stream which moved the ball. I wondered why in a previous post you laid out all the water hazard rules

From that I'm assuming the ball ended up in the water hazard?

 

[Colin L]

I think we should be giving Robobum's suggestion more prominence. If the weather was that bad, head for a pint in the bar.

 

[duncan mackie]

Thanks, Duncan.
I hadn't thought of 14-6 to be honest, and my initial thought when you prompted me to do so, was that it is not analogous because if you stop and lift a moving ball in a water hazard and proceed under Rule 26, it makes no difference whether the ball is stopped in one part of the hazard or comes to rest further on in the hazard - the procedure and penalty are the same and you might save a bit of time. Whereas stopping the ball moving in the casual water and preventing it being carried into the water hazard saves you from a situation which could involve a penalty and leaves you with free relief. Stopping a moving ball to avoid getting into a disadvantageous position feels wrong!

Then I thought, but 14-6 would allow you to stop a ball being carried out of bounds and having to proceed under 27-1. So the analogy seems sound.

So, I'm astonished to think that we are contemplating two situations where the rules allow you to stop a ball in motion in order to avoid its getting into a worse position. But we are, aren't we?

don't forget that 14-6 also says that you can't wait and let the water carry your ball to a more desirable position either I think the key is that in stopping the ball the rule isn't contemplating that you consider the outcome of where it might go - for better or worse. When you find it it's in water, you remove it to proceed under the applicable rule.